tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post8563512081225453672..comments2024-03-25T13:40:30.747-04:00Comments on Faith and Theology: Encounters with tradition (5): becoming a global BaptistBen Myershttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03800127501735910966noreply@blogger.comBlogger23125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-37360904749018879552007-06-30T14:49:00.000-04:002007-06-30T14:49:00.000-04:00Macrina, I understand completely your prejudices...Macrina,<BR/> I understand completely your prejudices. I was privileged to know several black Baptists from South Africa during my seminary days (I've kept in touch with a few)--and the Baptist legacy in S.A., both British-influenced and SBC-influenced, has been a checkered one. On the one hand, some Baptists in S.A. were involved with Gandhi during his S.A. period as he forged the beginnings of his views on nonviolence. (This story is told in James D. Hunt's, <I>Gandhi and the Nonconformists: Encounters in South Africa</I>(1986)). And some were involved in the ANC struggle, but most were pro-apartheid and/or so otherworldly that they "ignored politics" which amounted to the same thing.<BR/> All I can say is that my friendships with these international students, Black South African Baptists, led to my involvement in the Stateside section of the anti-apartheid struggle of the '80s. I led groups of seminarians to civil disobedience in those days as we endeavored to persuade the U.S. government to stop "constructive engagement" and put more pressure on the white government to change.<BR/><BR/>But I make no claims that this was typical of Baptists in S.A., the States, or elsewhere. As with many other Christian traditions, racism has a large, nasty history within Baptist circles.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-8704886402384704092007-06-30T10:47:00.000-04:002007-06-30T10:47:00.000-04:00Michael,I'm someone for whom the word "Baptist" ha...Michael,<BR/>I'm someone for whom the word "Baptist" has overwhelmingly negative connotations, having grown up in a South African Baptist context in the apartheid era. Although the SA Baptists originally had more British roots they had become increasingly influenced by the Southern Baptist fundamentalists and were not only fundamentalist but decidedly apartheid supporting, war-mongering, anti-ecumenical etc. Although I know (and knew - my father who was on the fringe left of the Baptist scene kept trying to convince me about the radical reformation; in retrospect he was probably trying to convince himself) in theory that there were other sorts of Baptists, this remained at the level of theoretical knowledge or else of a sort of distant admiration for people like Mennonites (who were banned in SA). But reading your post and sometimes also your blog has helped to put a more human face on this thing called the radical reformation, and, as Kerry says above, is a help towards tempering my prejudice. Thank you for that.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-47016228054421595562007-06-30T06:31:00.000-04:002007-06-30T06:31:00.000-04:00Reading back over these great comments, I see that...Reading back over these great comments, I see that I missed an early question addressed to me.<BR/><BR/>An anonymous commenter not only asked if my pilgrimage entailed adult baptism (it did), but how my Methodist family felt about it. I missed the latter part of the question and it is a fair one.<BR/><BR/>Ordinarily, I suppose, my folks might have been upset. My parents didn't think much about Baptists, especially since they were working class (but striving!) folks who valued education and thought most Baptist ministers were incredibly uneducated. (The Baptist tradition does have a long love/hate relationship with higher education, but that's a story for another time.) And, although I did not consider my infant christening a baptism, my mother DEFINITELY did and could easily have resented what she would have seen as a "rebaptism."<BR/> What saved the situation is that I had already dropped out of church as a young teen when I refused to finish catechism classes and be confirmed. I had declared myself an agnostic and hadn't gone to church for years. So, after my conversion and baptism, my parents were so glad to simply see me become a Christian and attend church, etc., that they quickly "got over" the fact that I was now Baptist. (A few years later, my younger brother became a Pentecostal via marriage--which took any remaining heat off me!! I wonder if I ever thanked Jim enough for that?) <BR/><BR/> There was, anonymous, far more <I>Sturm und Drang</I> over my becoming a conscientious objector and pacifist! You see, I didn't mention that I came from a long line on both sides of my family of folks who volunteered for a term of military service. In the case of my mom's family, that tradition went back to the U.S. Revolutionary War. (Note to UK readers--"the revolt of the Colonies.") My father had joined the Navy out of high school instead of the Army in order to avoid going to Vietnam (he--rightly--realized that it violated all 7 principles of Just War Theory). But it was still 5 years before my family would mention or discuss my pacifism--though since 9/11 many have moved closer to my view.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-5072189843522383742007-06-29T13:38:00.000-04:002007-06-29T13:38:00.000-04:00Great story, Michael, and one I found particularly...Great story, Michael, and one I found particularly helpful. Half my family was Southern Baptist, and my young experiences of their nonsense left an almost indelible bad taste in my mouth for all things Baptists. (I sometimes wonder how much of my going over to Anglicanism was sheer rebellion.) I've been working for years to temper that prejudice and not indiscriminately lump all Baptists with the Southern mix. Your post here is one more step along the way. Thanks!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-67367373446837828132007-06-28T23:09:00.000-04:002007-06-28T23:09:00.000-04:00Enjoyed the post. I did a stint as a Convention Ba...Enjoyed the post. I did a stint as a Convention Baptist (which is associated with the SBC IIRC) lay minister. I was struck by the diversity that they held in tension there. But I was on the more fundie side of things back then - recovering from my pentecostal experience. Although I went the other way with baptism - I actually affirm either believing that the significance lies with the believer not the specific form of that sacrament.One of Freedomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02479227411431959461noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-53821032312006817602007-06-28T18:45:00.000-04:002007-06-28T18:45:00.000-04:00I used to be proud to be a Southern Baptist becaus...I used to be proud to be a Southern Baptist because we had room for great diversity. That kept us from going to extremes. Now I'm ashamed to admit that it was with Southern Baptists that I served as a missionary.<BR/><BR/>I hope the upcoming multi-baptist celebration will revive the tradition of broad fellowship among baptists.<BR/><BR/>May your pilgrimage continue in faithfulness.Tauratinswehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10273045023254083987noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-86621852849375442662007-06-28T18:10:00.000-04:002007-06-28T18:10:00.000-04:00From Article 19 of the Baptist Faith and Message, ...From Article 19 of the <I>Baptist Faith and Message</I>, 1925:<BR/><BR/>"It is the duty of Christians to seek peace with all men on principles of righteousness. In accordance with the spirit and teachings of Christ they should do all in their power to put an end to war." This article was revised in 1963 and watered down in the rightwing revision of 2000, but that sentence remains in even the latest edition.<BR/><BR/>Baptists don't have creeds and, historically, our confessions of faith have been seen more as summaries, testimonies to outsiders, and guides to biblical interpretation, rather than strict tests of orthodoxy. The rightwing lurch of the SBC has treated the <I>Baptist Faith & Message</I> in an ever more creedalistic fashion--but has ignored this article in doing so.<BR/><BR/>Paul, thanks for your testimony. I could easily become Mennonite. I stay Baptist because of things such as the Baptist Peace Fellowship of North America (which has a British counterpart), composed of peaceloving, peacemaking Baptists from Canada, the U.S., Mexico, Puerto Rico, and Cuba--over 20 denominations of us including a few diehard Southern Baptists.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-10676264084433379622007-06-28T17:05:00.000-04:002007-06-28T17:05:00.000-04:00I can appreciate your search as one who came out o...I can appreciate your search as one who came out of USSR from a baptist church that embraced pacifism due to its influence in Russia and Ukraine at large prior to Soviet Revolution by the German Mennonites who settled lands in Ukraine and Russia, their way of life influenced Baptist Churches in both Russia and Ukraine. As a Baptist coming to North America it was very confusing to witness the mixed doctrines, theology and practice of baptist churches in America (Canada included) and little connection to pacifism, in light of my families persecution in USSR as believers who prayed for our persecutors it was odd indeed to see people embrace arms and military in the west...since then I have learned that Baptist churches vary greatly in North America and the world...although I have made a deliberate move to Anabaptism, and am now a associate pastor at a Mennonite church in Canada. I find your journey through branches of Baptist churches similar to mine. Thank you for sharing.Paulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10858971251271104372noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-34972034345077162322007-06-28T16:15:00.000-04:002007-06-28T16:15:00.000-04:00Travis, Yes, I have actually been in contact with...Travis,<BR/> Yes, I have actually been in contact with a few, like Ben Cole and Wade Burleson. They still preface everything they say with the phrase, "The Conservative Resurgence was necessary and saved the Convention, but now we are in danger of overly narrowing our parameters and we need spiritual revival." Of course, I contend that the first clause in that is completely untrue.<BR/><BR/>And when the annual SBC convention is dominated by arguments over whether missionaries can speak in tongues privately, whether or not one can drink a beer, or how many points of Calvinism must be believed before one knows that Jesus loves him or her; when seminaries announce degrees in homemaking for pastors' wives-- while the goodness of the war is taken for granted, Lifeway publishes idolatrous "Military Bibles," etc. then I think the "new reformers" have a long way to go.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-49397077833694105522007-06-28T14:03:00.000-04:002007-06-28T14:03:00.000-04:00Michael,I am sure you are aware of this, but there...Michael,<BR/><BR/>I am sure you are aware of this, but there are a growing number of younger "SBC fundamentalists" who are rejecting the complete devotion to the Republican party. Although they are still very much pro-life, I have noticed a more diverse group arising. At least here on campus at SBTS.Travis McGowenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08841407848296761144noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-45457496842711028432007-06-28T13:11:00.000-04:002007-06-28T13:11:00.000-04:00Guy, I would argue that the SBC never left evangel...Guy, I would argue that the SBC never left evangelical theology (you could never have found enough real liberals to fill a living room, no matter what the fundamentalists said) and that what they have now is scholastic fundamentalism.<BR/><BR/>However, when Ben first approached me about this, I wanted to be clear that because "Baptist" names a rather large tradition (and "baptist" an even larger one), that MY reasons for being Baptist would be different from yours, which would be different from Mike Bird's, which would be different than Jim West's, which would be different than Sean Winter's--to use some prominent biblio and theo-blogging Baptists as illustrations.<BR/><BR/>And, Guy, you yourself would have hated the way the post-1979 SBC became more and more identified with rightwing politics (and tried to force that on its overseas missions, too). Right? Don't start narrowing the definition of "evangelical" NOW from where you usually do on your own blog.<BR/><BR/>Bob, I actually knew about the near merger between Disciples and American Baptists. Also, despite some differences with "Campbellites," the Christian Church (D of C) is one place I considered going when I wondered if I could remain Baptist at all. I was, however, more likely to become Mennonite or Church of the Brethren.<BR/> My wife, a Baptist minister whose ministerial credentials have been recognized by the Disciples and the UCC, served a UCC congregation as interim pastor in the early '90s. I was asked if I wanted to apply for ordination in the UCC, but I could never bring myself to baptize babies (which I view as a form of coercion, of spiritual violence), so I turned them down.<BR/><BR/>So, I remain a Baptist from the (U.S.) South, but never again a Southern Baptist--and I know the difference.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-78276016878448215622007-06-28T12:08:00.000-04:002007-06-28T12:08:00.000-04:00Michael,Thanks for sharing your faith journey with...Michael,<BR/><BR/>Thanks for sharing your faith journey with us! To Derek, concerning the Stone-Campbell Movement -- it depends on what branch you're talking about. The Disciples have their evangelicals, as most Mainline churches do, but the denomination is not in the conservative evangelical camp. The Churches of Christ, though conservative, don't fit into that camp either -- but you are quite correct regarding the so-called middle group, the Christian Churches/Churches of Christ (North American Christian Convention).<BR/><BR/>And at least for awhile the Campbells did affiliate with the Baptists and the Disciples contemplated union with the American Baptists in the 1950s!Robert Cornwallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04581876323110725024noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-51310591537878241072007-06-28T11:53:00.000-04:002007-06-28T11:53:00.000-04:00Thanks for sharing your story Michael. I often fi...Thanks for sharing your story Michael. I often find that such biographical accounts help us think more creatively about our theological ‘positions’. Reading about your theological convictions framed in your own narrative is very interesting. On another theme--as someone who grew up in the Mennonite community and returned to it after a brief foray into the Evangelical world, I’m delighted to read about someone who takes seriously the possibility of a family of traditions that might be called the ‘believers church.’ From my perspective there is much that might be done to explore the relationships of the various traditions falling within this family. Donald Durnbaugh and John Howard Yoder have begun this work but there is potential for much more.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-62732024759136842942007-06-28T10:40:00.000-04:002007-06-28T10:40:00.000-04:00Great story. As a fellow ex-SBCer I resonated wit...Great story. As a fellow ex-SBCer I resonated with a good bit of it. Thanks for sharing.Tripphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08353226539928605633noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-417531586691110872007-06-28T10:29:00.000-04:002007-06-28T10:29:00.000-04:00Interesting story, MW-W. But I would see the resur...Interesting story, MW-W. But I would see the resurgance of evangelicalism among the Southern Baptists as a reason for rejoicing rather than regret!Guy Davieshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09184743462264437085noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-73233684041416258742007-06-28T09:15:00.000-04:002007-06-28T09:15:00.000-04:00I was baptized as an adult in 1983. I don't say re...I was baptized as an adult in 1983. I don't say re-baptized for the same reason that the 16th C. radicals rejected the term "Anabaptist,"--because I don't recognize my infant christening as a baptism.<BR/><BR/>Yes, Denny Weaver, Mark Theissen Nation, John Stoner, and others have teased me from time-to-time that I am more Mennonite in theology than many Mennonites. Still, I can't sing <I>a capella</I> in 4 part harmony and have other influences that would mark me off from "ethnic Mennonites," at least.<BR/><BR/>Gyan, I didn't say that "abortion was not so bad." If you read that statement (and I was already longer than Ben wanted) I said that I was sympathetic to the opposition to abortion on demand. I have been "caught in the middle" on that debate and have discussed it in more detail on my blog. All I was doing in that post was listing the "checklist" (which is still growing) that the fundamentalist leaders of the New SBC were demanding of everyone. And abortion opposition was added, as I said.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-91555008332650481232007-06-28T08:33:00.000-04:002007-06-28T08:33:00.000-04:00Were you rebaptized? I assume you couldn't join a ...Were you rebaptized? I assume you couldn't join a Baptist church on the strength of your Methodist infant baptism. How did you feel about that? How did your United Methodist family feel about it? <BR/><BR/>P.S. You sound like a Mennonite to me (and I was raised one).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-56397293415527672852007-06-28T07:19:00.000-04:002007-06-28T07:19:00.000-04:00So Pacifism but abortion not so bad?Some contradic...So Pacifism but abortion not so bad?<BR/>Some contradiction?.Gyanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09941686166886986037noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-35220129189502955962007-06-28T05:55:00.000-04:002007-06-28T05:55:00.000-04:00Oh, btw, that's a great picture, but being an urba...Oh, btw, that's a great picture, but being an urbanite, no church I've ever belonged to looked like that. My current church home, Jeff Street Baptist Community @ Liberty, is housed in a refurbished former tool and die factory in one of the poorest sections of downtown Louisville. From the outside, despite large signs, it doesn't much look like a church! :-)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-23085663104652212742007-06-28T05:45:00.000-04:002007-06-28T05:45:00.000-04:00O, yeah, Kim. I'll be in via, on my Pilgrim's Prog...O, yeah, Kim. I'll be <I>in via</I>, on my <I>Pilgrim's Progress</I> long past the present Slough of Despond. I'm fortunate to be a good Interpreters' House just now, though.<BR/><BR/>Thanks, all. And thanks to Ben for posting my lengthy contribution to a great series.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-73010806291233615722007-06-28T03:13:00.000-04:002007-06-28T03:13:00.000-04:00Great odyssey - and still in via! Thanks, Michael...Great odyssey - and still <I>in via</I>! Thanks, Michael.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-41513132852799178252007-06-28T00:36:00.000-04:002007-06-28T00:36:00.000-04:00Thanks for your post, Michael. It's encouraging to...Thanks for your post, Michael. It's encouraging to see that the Baptist tradition is so broad and diverse.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-68287894320162798472007-06-28T00:13:00.000-04:002007-06-28T00:13:00.000-04:00Thanks for this michael. I have to say that you'l...Thanks for this michael. I have to say that you'll be disapointed by what the Stone Campbell has become here in the midwestern US: a form of strong evangelicalism.<BR/><BR/>Anyways, thanks for you honest thoughts. I appreciate learning how people deal with transitions in faith/church life. It is good food for thought.derekhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14925043896803292539noreply@blogger.com