tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post7966383924147562238..comments2024-03-25T13:40:30.747-04:00Comments on Faith and Theology: Encounters with tradition (6): from Restoration to OrthodoxyBen Myershttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03800127501735910966noreply@blogger.comBlogger22125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-59913764134758535272007-07-13T00:51:00.000-04:002007-07-13T00:51:00.000-04:00Where in my post would you assume that I am not in...Where in my post would you assume that I am not in submission? I am in submission to my Bishop. Why must I need a central authority? The early Church did not have one. <BR/><BR/>I am not in submission to the Pope because I believe he is a Bishop that should reside in honor, not in universal authority. It is not my protestant mindset, that is simply bad rhetoric and bad taste.<BR/><BR/>I haven't checked out Byzantine Catholic churches because I do not agree with Roman Catholic teachings. It is not because of an unwillingness to submit to an authority. <BR/><BR/>Your own Pope recognizes the validity of the Orthodox communion. It is a shame there is division, but that division exists for many reasons.Danielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12462791786546752315noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-78215741673841224132007-07-12T21:53:00.000-04:002007-07-12T21:53:00.000-04:00Orthodoxy appears to attract you because it doesn'...Orthodoxy appears to attract you because it doesn't have a central authority but has all the other important elements, Tradition, Penance, Eucharist, etc. The Eastern Catholic Churches have every thing they do. But I think you fear [the Eastern Catholics'] papal submission - it's a Protestant mindset. That's why you haven't even checked those Churches out. Maybe you should...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-90560973456342434282007-07-11T00:32:00.000-04:002007-07-11T00:32:00.000-04:00Daniel,Thanks for clearing up the relationship wit...Daniel,<BR/><BR/>Thanks for clearing up the relationship with the Church of Christ. I thought that it might be what you meant.<BR/><BR/>As for the founders -- I'm assuming your attraction to Orthodoxy involves being drawn to the creed, something of course the Stone-Campbell Movement rejected. Of course context is everything and the founding generation was operating on the American frontier in the aftermath of the birth of the nation. So, obviously it is freedom that is the hallmark of the Founding Generation -- something that is easy for we later descendants to get away from.<BR/><BR/>Again, thanks for sharing. By the way, when I was your age I was just finding my way out of Pentecostalism. When you get old and gray like me -- 49 -- it will be interesting to see where you'll be. Keep yourself open to surprising twists and turns.Robert Cornwallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04581876323110725024noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-67264844687865348632007-07-10T22:19:00.000-04:002007-07-10T22:19:00.000-04:00http://htoc.wordpress.com/2007/07/10/journey-to-or...http://htoc.wordpress.com/2007/07/10/journey-to-orthodoxy/trackback/Jasonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02091285114358709692noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-8554803630153755272007-07-10T21:26:00.000-04:002007-07-10T21:26:00.000-04:00Daniel,Thanks for this post. I attend a "progressi...Daniel,<BR/><BR/>Thanks for this post. I attend a "progressive" Church of Christ in Nashville and because of a lot of same things as you, I have grown to greatly appreciate people outside of the Restoration tradition, but also some of the lofty (if misguided) goals of the original Restorationists. Your journey is extremely interesting and I really appreciate you sharing it.<BR/><BR/>PhilPhilhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11540149196113374329noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-42337301063465937012007-07-10T20:35:00.000-04:002007-07-10T20:35:00.000-04:00Bob,Thanks for the questions. 1. I grew up within ...Bob,<BR/>Thanks for the questions. <BR/><BR/>1. I grew up within a sect WITHIN the Restoration movement. The non-institutional COC, not the mainline COC. To the right of the mainline COC there is a large group of splinters.<BR/><BR/>2. I found that there was no connection from what the group I was in was teaching and what the Restoration people taught. So my main issue at that time was the inconsistency with what the Restoration founders had said/believed/practiced and what I had been taught growing up. This caused a rift that set the sect I was within in an ahistorical dreamworld, with far to many complications. I hold Alexander Campbell in esteem, but do not hold Walter Scott (who had Arian leanings), or Barton Stone's associations with Pentecostal excess in the Second Great Awakening.<BR/><BR/>I think my experience of the Restoration Tradition was probably a much different one than you have encountered in the Disciples of Christ. I hope this clears some thing up.Danielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12462791786546752315noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-9112305591863203392007-07-10T20:14:00.000-04:002007-07-10T20:14:00.000-04:00Daniel,Having gone on my own religious pilgrimage ...Daniel,<BR/><BR/>Having gone on my own religious pilgrimage from Episcopal to Foursquare and finally to the Disciples of Christ, your journey is unique and I welcome your testimony. But just a couple of questions:<BR/><BR/>1. What qualifies as a small sect? -- As the Churches of Christ number well past 1 million members and have several signficant universities including Pepperdine and Abilene Christian University -- they have also produced several outstanding biblical scholars including Abraham Malherbe of Yale Univ.<BR/><BR/>2. Now I write as a Disciple (the left wing of the Stone-Campbell movement), but I'm interested in knowing what you find objectionable about the teachings and practices of the founders.Robert Cornwallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04581876323110725024noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-29061687382021887182007-07-10T12:49:00.000-04:002007-07-10T12:49:00.000-04:00Reading these responses made me realize an element...Reading these responses made me realize an element of my journey that I didn't comment on.<BR/><BR/>The internet has been an invaluable tool for resources and for friendships. I have made significant real life contacts through blogs. The theology and thinking I was exposed to via blogs has been one of the most rewarding things. It has also in some ways been damaging, which I have reflected just recently on my blog about..<BR/>but anywho, thought i would add that.Danielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12462791786546752315noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-39874858450880126402007-07-10T11:39:00.000-04:002007-07-10T11:39:00.000-04:00Sounds a lot like my own story, only I started out...Sounds a lot like my own story, only I started out as a fundamental Baptist. I too began my real theological journey with Lewis, and then moved on to Wright and the others you mentioned, and then have most recently come to Orthodox theology. It's neat to know there are others out there who have same kinds of experiences. Thanks for sharing.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-4484132833350688672007-07-10T10:18:00.000-04:002007-07-10T10:18:00.000-04:00Hey, another reformed church-of-Christer! That giv...Hey, another reformed church-of-Christer! That gives me a warm, fuzzy feeling. =)Matthewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17980181582122445265noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-38921521944762968102007-07-10T09:30:00.000-04:002007-07-10T09:30:00.000-04:00What a beautiful post. I've encountered some of wh...What a beautiful post. I've encountered some of what you've described in the best of the Orthodox Church. One of the benefits of studying at St. Paul University which has a strong Eastern Studies programme. And one of my favourite places to pray in the whole school is the Orthodox chapel. I find that my thinking is too Western to be fully comfortable in the Orthodox Church, but I appreciate its beauty. I'm also very sacramentally oriented, but in an evangelical way. <BR/><BR/>I'm glad you found your home in this wonderful body of Christ. Thanks for sharing your journey.One of Freedomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02479227411431959461noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-54803250280876350892007-07-10T08:43:00.000-04:002007-07-10T08:43:00.000-04:00Kim,I have most definitely heard of Rowan Williams...Kim,<BR/>I have most definitely heard of Rowan Williams! I first encountered his work "Wound of Knowledge." I had searched my library to find something by him (at that point I was very interested in becoming Anglican) and began devouring the book as soon as I checked it out. I was moved to tears by the first chapter. I had not read a more beautiful theology till then. Which is another aspect of Orthodoxy I love, the theology I read is the most penitent and beautiful I have ever read.<BR/>I have read more Williams since, his work on Arius and Tradition I read for research on Arius, and his book "Why Study the Past?" is also a great read. I think it is a must for anyone delving into historical theology. <BR/><BR/>I understand Williams appreciation for Orthodoxy and seeing how it is in many ways vastly different from certain Western traditions. This can yield its own problems (e.g. this tends to add to anti-Western sentiment found among some Orthodox), but overall it creates a cohesiveness that I have found no where else.<BR/><BR/>I wish I had been able to discuss things from my philosophical movement as well, because it played a huge role as well. But you can't talk about everything on someone else's blog!<BR/><BR/>thanks again folks.Danielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12462791786546752315noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-38666964065535399472007-07-10T07:12:00.000-04:002007-07-10T07:12:00.000-04:00Wow. An amazing and well-written account of your ...Wow. An amazing and well-written account of your spiritual journey. It especially strikes a chord with me. Ordained Anglican though I am, Orthodoxy's called me for years.<BR/><BR/>Thanks!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-89894117953163842182007-07-10T06:33:00.000-04:002007-07-10T06:33:00.000-04:00Well, look at that. WKU and Trafton getting talked...Well, look at that. WKU and Trafton getting talked up in an international forum. <BR/><BR/>Thanks Daniel. It's nice to finally hear a thorough account of your journey. <BR/><BR/>peaceDerekhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16236694490047619649noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-41135484346092631512007-07-10T05:24:00.000-04:002007-07-10T05:24:00.000-04:00Thanks Daniel. That does clarify things. :)Thanks Daniel. That does clarify things. :)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-19628160906733772722007-07-10T02:54:00.000-04:002007-07-10T02:54:00.000-04:00Hi Daniel,Thank you so much for such an arresting ...Hi Daniel,<BR/><BR/>Thank you so much for such an arresting and stimulating account of "the way of a pilgrim".<BR/><BR/>I notice that, in your personal bibliography, there is no mention of Rowan Williams. Do you know his life and work? Williams was born here in Swansea where I live and minister. He has a Welsh Presbyterian background, but before he finally moved into Anglicanism and the priesthood, Orthodoxy (which had fascinated him since teenage) and the monastery were powerful vocational alternatives. Indeed Williams did his doctorate at Oxford on Lossky, and his work on Arius and the Desert Fathers is seminal.<BR/><BR/>In his <I>Anarchy, Church and Utopia: Rowan Williams on Church</I> (2005), Theo Hobson observes: "Orthodoxy is seen by Williams as the Christian tradition least tainted by modernism, rationalism, individualism. It preserves a sense that salvation is intrinsically social. It also has an inbuilt respect for tradition; it consistently attempts to 'pursue a theology of the historical <I>mediation</I> of revelation, a theology of tradition. For many students of the field, this remains one of the most abidingly interesting and fruitful contributions of the Orthodox vision in contemporary theological discussions.'"<BR/><BR/>Ring any bells (or light any incense!)?<BR/><BR/>Thanks again.<BR/>And, yes, thanks to Ben for this marvellous series.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-40448914069289861262007-07-10T01:30:00.000-04:002007-07-10T01:30:00.000-04:00Michael,You're right, WKU is a jem. It is due to t...Michael,<BR/>You're right, WKU is a jem. It is due to their library and professors that I have been able to pursue a lot of my interests theologically and philosophically! I have done work on St. Augustine, N.T. Wright, the Arian Controversy, Liberation Theology, Pauline scholarship, Historical Jesus work, and soon to be my last semester Lonergan and Aquinas. This isnt mentioning my philosophy classes! It is quite the blessing to have a lot of Professors at a State University who are active and professing Christians.<BR/><BR/>JBH,<BR/>Yes, I have taken Trafton for quite a few classes. It was while studying with Trafton in an independent study on N.T. Wright that I realized I needed to seriously consider the Church Fathers.<BR/><BR/>thanks guys.Danielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12462791786546752315noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-46835461414677108832007-07-10T00:09:00.000-04:002007-07-10T00:09:00.000-04:00Daniel,I went to WKU a few years ago. Did you tak...Daniel,<BR/><BR/>I went to WKU a few years ago. Did you take Trafton for anything?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-60974162360517920202007-07-09T22:42:00.000-04:002007-07-09T22:42:00.000-04:00Thanks for this compelling testimony, Daniel. I ju...Thanks for this compelling testimony, Daniel. I just want to say to those not in the know that the religion and philosophy programs at the small, state-run, Western Kentucky University are gems. They could qualify as among the best kept secret treasures of the academic study of religion and philosophy--and, unlike with most state-run universities in the U.S., the scholars at WKU are professing Christians!<BR/><BR/>That wasn't the main point of your testimony, I know, but I thought I would point it out.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-55080672055844963022007-07-09T22:40:00.000-04:002007-07-09T22:40:00.000-04:00Daniel: What an interesting journey. Thanks for s...Daniel: What an interesting journey. Thanks for sharing.<BR/><BR/>Ben: I'm glad to see this series is still going.::aaron g::https://www.blogger.com/profile/03849988327077565616noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-5171205783114258712007-07-09T22:21:00.000-04:002007-07-09T22:21:00.000-04:00Thanks Arni. Let me clarify that sentence. Orthodo...Thanks Arni. Let me clarify that sentence. <BR/><BR/>Orthodoxy has shown to me the gateway to repentance like no other Tradition had ever done before. This is not the fault necessarily of any other Tradition. It is rather what I have experienced in the Orthodox liturgical life (e.g. Read the Canon of St. Andrew that Orthodox go through during Lent)and Orthodox theology (e.g. the constant focus on asceticism).<BR/>I had of course experienced profound repentance before Orthodoxy, but not with the help and guidance of a Spiritual Father or within the Liturgical life of the Church. <BR/>I encourage picking up Archimandrite Sophrony's "We Shall See Him as He Is" it is a profound read and a good introduction to Modern Orthodox theology, as far as I can tell, from a monastic vantage. -"It is naive to think that one can follow Christ without shedding tears." pg. 49-<BR/><BR/>I believe entering the Kingdom of Heaven is not a one time event but a gradual process of the opening up of the human to the reality of the life of the Triune God. So I was experiencing this before Orthodoxy to some degree, but I cannot say that it is near the same as what I have encountered since becoming Orthodox.<BR/><BR/>I hope that offers some clarity.Danielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12462791786546752315noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-31526640239993432152007-07-09T21:55:00.000-04:002007-07-09T21:55:00.000-04:00Good, interesting and fascinating post. Just wonde...Good, interesting and fascinating post. Just wondered about once sentence..<BR/><BR/><I>I became Orthodox because I had to repent to enter the kingdom of heaven.</I><BR/><BR/>What do you mean? You never repented before you joined the Orthodox church? Did you not enter the Kingdom before Orthodoxy? Just wondering..Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com