tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post7953477652818311381..comments2024-03-25T13:40:30.747-04:00Comments on Faith and Theology: Ecclesiology: what to read?Ben Myershttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03800127501735910966noreply@blogger.comBlogger57125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-4915210717749019932011-11-18T05:41:37.759-05:002011-11-18T05:41:37.759-05:00Thursday, November 17, 2011
SSPX IMPLY BAPTISM OF ...Thursday, November 17, 2011<br />SSPX IMPLY BAPTISM OF DESIRE IS VISIBLE, THEN THEY ASSUME IT’S AN EXCEPTION TO THE DOGMA OUTSIDE THE CHURCH THERE IS NO SALVATION: OFFER LATIN MASS WITH NOVUS ORDO ECCLESIOLOGY <br />The Society of St. Pius X needs to announce that the baptism of desire is not an exception to the dogma and that everyone with no exception needs to convert into the Church for salvation.Otherwise it is an impediment for saying the Latin Mass. It is the actual rejection of a dogma which Pope Pius XII called an ‘infallible statement’. SSPX must recognize that it is an impediment for offering Holy Mass according to Canon Law.<br /><br /><br />Similar to the SSPX, the Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter (FSSP), former SSPX members, are rejecting the dogma and Vatican Council II (LG 14, AG 7) which says all need to enter the Church with Catholic Faith and the baptism of water. For the FSSP all in the present time need to enter the Church except for those in invincible ignorance and the baptism of desire.<br /><br /><br />I do not know if the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, Vatican will consider the SSPX and FSSP error an impediment to offering Mass since the Paulist Fathers at the Church of Santa Susanna in Rome reject the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus. They claim Vatican Council II has changed this teaching and they provide a theology of religions on their website. They offer Mass in English, ordain their priests and the Vatican gives them canonical status.There are no demands made on them by the Vatican as is the case for the SSPX. <br /><br /><br />Fr. Peter Scott writes on the SSPX website that unlike the modernists they believe in the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus. Yes- as compared to the Paulist Fathers in Rome. However there are priests who offer the Novus Ordo Mass who say they respect the dogma however those in invincible ignorance and the baptism of desire are exceptions to the dogma. Sounds familiar?<br /><br /><br />Fr. Peter Scott criticizes the modernist ecclesiology in a letter to Bishop Raymond Boland, of the diocese of Kansas City, USA. Yet the SSPX is using the same ecclesiology as the priests who offer the Novus Ordo Mass. If the SSPX priests assume that the baptism of desire contradicts the dogma then they also imply that the baptism of desire is visible for us and is as explicit as the baptism of water.I do not like to write all this since in many ways I admire the SSPX but it is unfortunate that they are using the same ecclesiology as in the Novus Ordo Mass. <br /> <br /><br />Fr. Peter Scott and Fr. Francois Laisney of the SSPX assume in written reports on their website, and in a book by Fr. Laisney, that the baptism of desire is visible and explicit and so is an exception to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.The SSPX needs to issue a clarification on this subject-Lionel AndradesLionel Andradesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-13073069282810504812009-04-19T18:29:00.000-04:002009-04-19T18:29:00.000-04:00For a simple undergraduate text Richard McBrien`s ...For a simple undergraduate text Richard McBrien`s `The Church` will probably tick all the boxesandrewbournehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14365466668037323684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-2607015663655250382009-04-18T19:36:00.000-04:002009-04-18T19:36:00.000-04:00An ecclesiology class that sent you to hell would ...An ecclesiology class that sent you to hell would indeed be most edifying of all. <br />Brothers Karamazov would top my list. Is there room in Alyosha's pious heart for Ivan's hell? Now there's an ecclesiological question worth pursuing.Saint Egregioushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13024338290834404058noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-35104148396136448082009-04-18T15:32:00.000-04:002009-04-18T15:32:00.000-04:00I've found Webster's essay "On Evangelical Ecclesi...I've found Webster's essay "On Evangelical Ecclesiology", Bonhoeffer's "Discipleship" and Newbigin's "The Household of God" all very helpful.Matt Jensonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03310693669051310020noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-42119368432106967352009-04-17T22:32:00.000-04:002009-04-17T22:32:00.000-04:00The lecture Zachary mentioned is listed in Mike Hi...The lecture Zachary mentioned is listed in Mike Higton's excellent online Bibliography of Rowan Williams, and he lists the citation as:<br />1994b Mission and Christology, J C Jones Memorial Lecture 1994, Brynmawr: Welsh Members Council, Church Mission Society <br /><br />It seems it also was on amazon in the uk, but not available now. You may be able to get it via the old fashioned interlibrary loan (like we used to have to do in the late 80s)...<br /><br />...I was able to read the Archbishop's unpublished dissertation that way...<br /><br />Good luck, I would love to read that lecture as well...<br /><br />Peace...<br /><br />Peter+Peter Careyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09006134824557299678noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-57747405695025973512009-04-17T22:13:00.000-04:002009-04-17T22:13:00.000-04:00Thanks, folks: you're wonderful! There are so many...Thanks, folks: you're wonderful! There are so many great suggestions here — I really appreciate it.<br /><br />Erin, I'd be glad to post the reading lists for these courses once I've drawn them up.<br /><br />And does anyone know if this Rowan Williams lecture (the one Zachary mentions, "mission and christology") has been published elsewhere?<br /><br />Thanks again, y'all.Ben Myershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03800127501735910966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-68191662654260799732009-04-17T19:35:00.000-04:002009-04-17T19:35:00.000-04:00A little known lecture given by then Bishop of Mon...A little known lecture given by then Bishop of Monmouth The Rt Revd Rowan Williams. It is entitled Mission & Christology, JC Jones Memorial Lecture 1994. I found a copy at Emory University. I don't know if it is published elsewhere but it is indispensable and only about 20 pages. It would be a great way to set the tone for the course.<br /><br />Zack Thompson<br />Atl, GaZachary R. Thompsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02857547701147457975noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-47011186084079609562009-04-17T15:08:00.000-04:002009-04-17T15:08:00.000-04:00I don't see the Letters of Saint Ignatius of Antio...I don't see the Letters of Saint Ignatius of Antioch mentioned anywhere here!Macrina Walkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06212423889132994487noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-77586850772303231152009-04-17T13:41:00.000-04:002009-04-17T13:41:00.000-04:00Hi Ben,
If it's not too much trouble would you be ...Hi Ben,<br />If it's not too much trouble would you be willing to either post the lists you settle on for both pneumatology and ecclesiology - or even the class reading assignments/ syllabi? Hope that's not too forward/<br /><br />That way I won't have to scratch my head about what to read next :)Erinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13301222412563398458noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-80611460890059281302009-04-17T13:25:00.000-04:002009-04-17T13:25:00.000-04:00Living Gently in a Violent World
Vanier and Hauer...Living Gently in a Violent World<br /><br />Vanier and Hauerwas<br /><br /><br />Would also read some monastics from Benedict to Merton. <br /><br /><br />What does it mean to be a community that lives together, witnessing with their lives and proclaiming with their lips.<br /><br />Maybe even Martyrs of Atlas.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-85245464684401971102009-04-17T12:04:00.000-04:002009-04-17T12:04:00.000-04:00Wow, what a great list so far! I can echo a few o...Wow, what a great list so far! I can echo a few of the suggestions, like the Volf volume and Healy's work. I also found Michael Jinkins little book, The Church Faces Death to be very interesting, as well as Marva Dawn's work on Powers, Weakness and the Tabernacling of God. I think some of the best stuff is really embedded in larger works many of which have already been mentioned (Calvin, Barth, etc.), but one I don't think I have seen is Bonhoeffer's discipleship in which the visibility of the community is discussed. Lastly, Leonardo Boff's short Holy Trinity, Perfect Community and Gerhard Lohfink's Jesus and Community are both quite good, especially the latter.<br /><br />PS: Maybe listening to Zep's "Houses of the Holy" will provide further inspiration!Christian Collins Winnnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-75404399215744255042009-04-17T01:49:00.000-04:002009-04-17T01:49:00.000-04:00I havent read through the comments, so if these ha...I havent read through the comments, so if these havent already been suggested, please check out:<br />-Hans Kung, The Church.<br /><br />-George Hunsinger, The Eucharist and Ecumenism (2008) would have much in there that is very relevant to a module in Ecclesiology. Its a gem!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-19329857804354264292009-04-16T23:21:00.000-04:002009-04-16T23:21:00.000-04:00I'm still listening to Led Zep IV.I'm still listening to Led Zep IV.roger flyernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-27320800303574116352009-04-16T22:38:00.000-04:002009-04-16T22:38:00.000-04:00De Lubac, Corpus Mysticum
McPartlan, Eucharist M...De Lubac, Corpus Mysticum <br /><br />McPartlan, Eucharist Makes the Church<br /><br />Cavanaugh, Theopolitical Imaginationmatt tapiehttp://www.threemagi.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-53644041440332170592009-04-16T19:13:00.000-04:002009-04-16T19:13:00.000-04:00How could I forget George Herbert's "Church Milita...How could I forget George Herbert's "Church Militant?"Tony Hunthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15364659700029347895noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-91687536866533344422009-04-16T19:04:00.000-04:002009-04-16T19:04:00.000-04:00There's a peculiar substance in the lives of indiv...There's a peculiar substance in the lives of individuals as part of community...how about reading some of the live of the saints?<br />-AnnAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-48384942728433396382009-04-16T16:30:00.000-04:002009-04-16T16:30:00.000-04:00Something to represent patristic thought would sur...Something to represent patristic thought would surely be good: R.F. Evans' One and Holy: The Church in Latin Patristic Thought (1972), or R. Murray's Symbols of Church and Kingdom: A Study in Early Syriac Tradition ((1975) are good orientations.<br /><br />There's a lot of excellent material in the various documents of ecumenical dialogues, which are also handy windows into current theological issues and methodologies: for example, Round 10 of the the Lutheran-Roman Catholic dialogue, The Church as Koinonia of Salvation: Its Structures and Ministries (2004; available on the web).paulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11081262572667639036noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-5045558721929217702009-04-16T15:07:00.000-04:002009-04-16T15:07:00.000-04:00I recently finished a year of reading ecclesiology...I recently finished a year of reading ecclesiology as part of my doctoral work at Fuller. Our reading list included:<br /><br /><I>Models of the Church</I>, by Avery Dulles<br /><br /><I>The Great Giveaway</I>, by David Fitch<br /><br /><I>Another City</I>, by Barry Harvey<br /><br /><I>An Introduction to Ecclesiology</I>, by Veli-Matti Karkkainen<br /><br /><I>The Local Church, Agent of Transformation</I>, by Tetsunao Yamamori and Rene Padilla (eds.)<br /><br />Of these, either Dulles or Karkkainen would be sufficient as a primer (I preferred Karkkainen, as Dulles was dry).<br /><br />The Fitch book (in which he presents a "postmodern evangelical ecclesiology") is a devastating critique of garden-variety evangelical ecclesiology.<br /><br />The Harvey book is short and well-written; it offers an Anabaptist/missional ecclesiology (the "contrast society" view). Harvey is a member of the Ekklesia Project, along with Hauerwas and others.<br /><br />Yamamori and Padilla (et al.) offer a Latin American perspective, with an emphasis on mission.<br /><br />Yoder offers a Mennonite perspective, with an emphasis on ethics (it's a brief book that can be read in one or two sittings, and it includes a stinging critique of the theology of vocation of the so-called "Magisterial Reformers").<br /><br /><I>The Essence of the Church</I>, by Craig Van Gelder, is also brief and readable (he writes from a Lutheran and missional perspective, and is most concerned with connecting missiology and ecclesiology).<br /><br />Like someone else above, I enjoyed reading Rodney Clapp's <I>A Peculiar People</I> (Clapp is always readable); but I wouldn't call this book academic.<br /><br />Also in agreement with someone above, I found Lee Camp's <I>Mere Discipleship</I> to be a powerful read. However, I would say that it is more directly about discipleship than ecclesiology (yes, I know that Christian discipleship requires Christian community).<br /><br />And surely no one would question including Bonhoeffer's <I>Life Together</I>.Joshhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11823464329012635376noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-37539246749401614812009-04-16T13:57:00.000-04:002009-04-16T13:57:00.000-04:00From a very Lutheran perspective, but with the ben...From a very Lutheran perspective, but with the benefit of being short and suscinct readings.<br /><br />Formula of Concord - Epitome Art X<br /><br />http://www.bookofconcord.org/fc-ep.php#X.%20Church%20Rites<br /><br />Augsburg Confesssion Artivle VII & VIII and possible V<br /><br />http://www.bookofconcord.org/augsburgconfession.php#article7<br /><br />And a guy worth reading, Hermann Sasse. There are a bunch, but a publically available one would be Doctrine of the Office of the Ministry.<br /><br />http://www.clai.org.au/articles/sasse/offminst.htm<br /><br />One other American attempt at expressing and realizing those Lutheran confessional documents, Walther's Church and Ministry Theses.<br /><br />http://www.saintmarylutheran.org/KircheUndAmt.pdf<br /><br />Good short readings on the church and its ministry that should spur debate.Markhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01245846091197203725noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-17031414852036132062009-04-16T12:43:00.000-04:002009-04-16T12:43:00.000-04:00Lots of good suggestions on here. I recommend the...Lots of good suggestions on here. I recommend the Volf and Hauerwas books very much. Someone also said "Another City" by Barry Harvey, which is a fairly easy read, but a good one. I'll also throw into the mix "A Peculiar People" by Rodney Clapp.Jaredhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07609681674796721671noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-43858359123730313252009-04-16T11:08:00.000-04:002009-04-16T11:08:00.000-04:00On a friendlier reader level, I was deeply influen...On a friendlier reader level, I was deeply influenced by Lee Camp's Yoderian <I>Mere Discipleship</I>. Especially for us free church types, its ecclesiology is wonderful.Brad Easthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09342341127122254107noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-75174029567329912842009-04-16T11:04:00.000-04:002009-04-16T11:04:00.000-04:00The first two essays in Dumitru Staniloae's Theolo...The first two essays in Dumitru Staniloae's <I>Theology and Church</I> certainly deserve to be on this list: "Trinitarian Relations and the Life of the Church" and "The Holy Spirit and the Sobornicity of the Church."Kevinnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-83491818185160762282009-04-16T09:46:00.000-04:002009-04-16T09:46:00.000-04:00Marva Dawn "Truly the Community"
Michael Horton "...Marva Dawn "Truly the Community"<br /><br />Michael Horton "People and Place"Jasonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-83270219903014426662009-04-16T09:43:00.001-04:002009-04-16T09:43:00.001-04:00...ah, someone DOES mention LG just as I'm posting......ah, someone DOES mention LG just as I'm posting... thank you, anonymous, a wise suggestion. And your other suggestions are good as well.<br /><br />I know there is a LOT being published on ecclesiology these days, but I still think that there needs to be a grounding in all of this traditional stuff. It disciplines thinking about the Church and keeps people from flitting off to every new dead-end that pops up. I don't think one needs to agree with the oldies to benefit from them... they simply are the giants' shoulders upon which we stand.Evanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12259004160963531720noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-50879905470822433872009-04-16T09:43:00.000-04:002009-04-16T09:43:00.000-04:00Karkkainen's An Introduction to Ecclesiology: Ecum...Karkkainen's <I><A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/Introduction-Ecclesiology-Ecumenical-Historical-Perspectives/dp/0830826882/ref=pd_sim_b_2" REL="nofollow">An Introduction to Ecclesiology: Ecumenical, Historical & Global Perspectives</A></I>Volf's <I><A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/After-Our-Likeness-Trinity-Doctrina/dp/0802844405/ref=pd_sim_b_4" REL="nofollow">After Our Likeness: The Church As the Image of the Trinity</A></I>Alejandrohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12679330020969019771noreply@blogger.com