tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post471134960638389058..comments2024-03-25T13:40:30.747-04:00Comments on Faith and Theology: Death in the 21st centuryBen Myershttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03800127501735910966noreply@blogger.comBlogger22125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-8249772851409190702010-05-13T11:24:07.923-04:002010-05-13T11:24:07.923-04:00Thanks, Byron. I got to the end of your comment, ...Thanks, Byron. I got to the end of your comment, John (thanks to you too, mate!), and was about simply to refer you to the exchanges (above) between Byron and me, but then I saw that Byron had already replied with interest. I concur completely with his last two sentences.kim fabriciusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-44048740162621395832010-05-13T07:58:23.975-04:002010-05-13T07:58:23.975-04:00John, what resurrection meant for those whose body...John, what resurrection meant for those whose body was destroyed was an issue that many of the early fathers addressed (the Augustine reference above is one of many such discussions). Indeed, there is some evidence that hostile rulers, knowing this Christian belief, would deliberately destroy the bodies of martyrs for this reason. The answer generally given was that our resurrection is indeed of our body, and in cases where it has been destroyed, God can reconstitute it. Whether or not we share the same metaphysical commitments regarding the substance and form of human bodies as ancient Christian writers, I think that it is possible to affirm both that orthodox Christian hope is hope for the redemption and liberation of (not from) this body, and that bodily destruction is no barrier to the power of God.<br /><br />So while I would say it is important to hold a funeral/memorial service where a body has been lost, this is nonetheless the exception. Where (as is usually the case), the body is still around, it ought to be present at its own funeral.byron smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17938334606675769903noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-31185658762939087692010-05-13T07:22:44.083-04:002010-05-13T07:22:44.083-04:00Dear Kim,
Thank you for an excellent sermon with ...Dear Kim,<br /><br />Thank you for an excellent sermon with very helpful reflections on the ways that the world and the church both avoid harsh realities in the ways they think about death. I thought this bit of what you posted was great.<br /><br />However I must confess to being troubled about the focus on <i>"the resurrection of the <b>body</b>"</i> and its corollary that we shouldn't have funerals in the absence of the body for theological reasons (as opposed to pastoral reasons - I can quite see the point that the absence of the body in a "memorial" service is a further excuse for treating death as if it wasn't really so terrible). Is there any evidence that the first Christians believed that those who (for instance) were dismembered and eaten by lions in the amphitheatre, or drowned and consumed by leviathans in the deeps, were thereby somehow under threat of non-resurrection on the Last Day? I doubt it.<br /><br />I can see the point that Jesus' resurrection was linked to his body: the empty tomb, the denial that he was a ghost (in Luke 24) and so on all make that point. The OT texts that say that he shall not suffer corruption are fulfilled in Jesus. And I can see that Christ's resurrection is a firstfruits of what happens to those who belong to him (1 Cor 15). But somehow I can't help thinking there's some logical fallacy in saying that our resurrections are therefore tied to our physical bodies, when they pretty clearly aren't in the cases where the body has been destroyed and then scattered to the four winds or to the digestive tracts of other animals. Help me out!<br /><br />Yours in Christ - JOHN HARTLEY.John Hartleynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-34352780387543416462010-05-11T23:58:44.931-04:002010-05-11T23:58:44.931-04:00Good thoughts there. I've bookmarked this blog...Good thoughts there. I've bookmarked this blog, and will regularly visit it.Rosshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08827731848618933239noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-9834452525389715532010-05-11T16:44:18.764-04:002010-05-11T16:44:18.764-04:00Yeah, Jim... Actually I take his point about &quo...Yeah, Jim... Actually I take his point about "talks", i.e. "preaching" on a general theme rather than a text. But a biblical text, I think, may be more than just a sentence or even a passage (though, in fact, most of my sermons are the kind of CAT sermons - Close Attention to the Text sermons - that Jim insists <i>all</i> sermons must be). I would certainly deny that my references to scripture in this sermon were an afterthought to give an otherwise unbiblical address a veneer of biblical respectability. In any case, I think it is mistaken to equate <i>biblical</i> sermons with <i>expository</i> sermons. Several of the sermons I have preached with which I have been least unhappy were simply stories with no specifically biblical or even "religious" content at all. For which I think there is a precedent somewhere in the gospels.kim fabriciusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-72663569491286060152010-05-11T11:51:10.330-04:002010-05-11T11:51:10.330-04:00I see that the old goat Jim West has criticised yo...I see that the old goat Jim West has criticised your sermon on his blog. He's obviously of the Big Bob the Baptist school of thinking, only without the humour.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-13942961442705881362010-05-11T08:09:17.768-04:002010-05-11T08:09:17.768-04:00Shutting down the well isn't always as easy as...Shutting down the well isn't always as easy as you might think, depending how deep you've tried to go...<br /><br />I've also heard, "However long you go for, it should feel like twenty minutes." So if ten minutes of me feels like twenty, I should stop at ten.byron smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17938334606675769903noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-60453079380043238122010-05-11T06:14:41.273-04:002010-05-11T06:14:41.273-04:00Big Bob, when I was starting out, an old Methodist...Big Bob, when I was starting out, an old Methodist minister told me, "Preach about God - and preach about twenty minutes." And you know the other old saw: "If you haven't struck oil in fifteen minutes, stop boring" (which gives you five minutes to shut down the well).kim fabriciusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-83912485016679084862010-05-11T05:28:40.748-04:002010-05-11T05:28:40.748-04:00Kim - Thanks, I can't seem to find an online v...Kim - Thanks, I can't seem to find an online version and don't have a copy here with me, so I can't check. I knew the CoG reference since I recently re-read Book XXII.byron smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17938334606675769903noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-56296659916288098422010-05-10T21:03:35.618-04:002010-05-10T21:03:35.618-04:00A real sermon should be much longer and involve me...A real sermon should be much longer and involve me "nodding off" half way through.Big Bob the Baptistnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-82977267776028508292010-05-10T18:25:02.827-04:002010-05-10T18:25:02.827-04:00Byron, my source on Augustine on cremation was sec...Byron, my source on Augustine on cremation was secondary, but a footnote refers to his <i>Retractions</i>, Book ii, chapter 64.kim fabriciusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-49814619867458717952010-05-10T16:57:48.486-04:002010-05-10T16:57:48.486-04:00Kim, the whole sermon was beautifully expressed an...Kim, the whole sermon was beautifully expressed and the final two paragraphs especially so. In our community, a number of funerals are not held in churches but at our local surf club (which is adjacent to one of the most beautiful beaches on the south coast of NSW). So these "celebrations of life" reflect the non-religious background of the deceased and, I would imagine, the wishes of their family. The Christian funerals I have attended are usually a mixture of sombre ceremony and joyful remembrance. I think many people have turned away from "the church" rather than "God" though. As a Christian, I take comfort from Paul's words in 1 Cor.15 but my joy comes from being part of God's kingdom here and now - not a place, but a state of being.Pamelahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05815263209123614682noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-91970431561077996652010-05-10T13:44:28.323-04:002010-05-10T13:44:28.323-04:00"As for bodies that have been consumed by wil..."As for bodies that have been consumed by wild beasts, or by fire, or those parts tat have disintegrated into dust and ashes, or those parts that have dissolved into moisture, or have evaporated into the air, it is unthinkable that the Creator should lack the power to revive them all and restore them to life. It is inconceivable that any nook or cranny of the natural world, though it may hold those bodies conceiled from our detection, could elude the notice or evade the power of the Creator of all things." <i>City of God</i>, XXII.20.<br /><br />Augustine goes on to problem that is "most difficult of all", namely cannibalism: who gets which bits? But even there, "even if that [cannibalised] flesh had completely disappeared, and none of its material had remained in any cranny of the natural world, the Almighty would reproduce it from what source he chose."<br /><br />In any case, I (with Augustine) have little problem with God solving the eschatological mechanics of resurrection bodies, I am more concerned about the symbolic and pastoral aspects of burial practices. There is a difference between saying that God will know where to find me (or the bits of me) when he comes to raise me, and embracing a practice predicated on accelerating the disintegration of the body.<br /><br />I actually quite like the Orthodox practice of temporary burial, then transferral of bones into an ossuary. This has the benefit of displaying due respect for the body while not requiring huge tracts of land for burial plots.byron smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17938334606675769903noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-17617271875035897022010-05-10T12:48:13.930-04:002010-05-10T12:48:13.930-04:00Apparently, Ben, while Augustine acknowledged that...Apparently, Ben, while Augustine acknowledged that God could resurrect an unintact body, he excepted a cremated body.kim fabriciusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-64177508756536647352010-05-10T11:32:52.336-04:002010-05-10T11:32:52.336-04:00Kim and Byron,
I also was considering the practice...Kim and Byron,<br />I also was considering the practice of cremation as I read this. My understanding is that the Catholic Church allows cremation as long as one's motivation is not deny or undermine belief in the resurrection of the body. I also think a theology of cremation might begin well by reflecting on Monica's response to Augustine when, as she was dying in Italy, he worried about her being buried away from home: "Nothing is far from God, and I have no fear that he will not know where to find me, when he comes to raise me to life at the end of the world."Bennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-81807836273836790932010-05-10T11:23:58.177-04:002010-05-10T11:23:58.177-04:00Hi Byron,
Thanks for your thanks.
On cremation:
...Hi Byron,<br /><br />Thanks for your thanks.<br /><br />On cremation:<br />The historic church, with its belief in the resurrection of the body, negatively evaluated cremation (which, widely practiced in Europe, waned as the church waxed). In the Middle Ages, the turn from cremation sharpened because of the association of burning with the punishment and execution of heretics. Of course fire can be positively construed (e.g., the fire of the Holy Spirit, or fire as refining, or fire as symbolic of passionate love), and even Rome now permits cremation - but only the burial, not the scattering, of ashes (both forms usually - and hideously - called "disposal"). I think the Catholic practice of burial makes good theological-liturgical sense, the urn (or other container) containing the body-as-ash, whereas scattering is suggestive of a kind of cosmic merging. I think the practice of cremation just crept up on most churches, which found themselves doing it without much thought, with any theology of cremation an afterthought. Not good.<br /><br />On proclaiming the "mystery of faith":<br />"In Christ shall all be made alive" is a not liturgically uncommon in the United Reformed Church. I'm pretty sure its source is liberal discomfort with or disbelief in the doctrine of the Second Coming. I use it occasionally, as it reflects a strand of biblical universalism, and it seemed apt to use it here, given the particular theme of the sermon. However, I normally use the traditional form at Communion services (though my interpreation of it undoubtedly differs from the Left Behind brigade!). <br /><br />Btw, one thing I forgot to mention in the sermon: cats. I believe in feline resurrection, and if my cats aren't in heaven, I'd rather be in the other place (even Cambridge).kim fabriciusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-78231253130656412762010-05-10T06:22:29.499-04:002010-05-10T06:22:29.499-04:00Thanks Kim - I had been thinking of writing about ...Thanks Kim - I had been thinking of writing about the de-gospelling of even church funerals myself and this post was a wonderful summary of some of the key points. I'd love to hear your thoughts on cremation and whether it (symbolically) undermines hope in resurrection by destroying the body rather than laying it to rest.<br /><br />I was also interested in this comment:<br /><i>We are here to proclaim the gospel that “Christ has died! Christ is risen! In Christ shall all be made alive!”</i><br />I appreciate how you've woven 1 Cor 15 into the traditional communion liturgy to make your point, but was this your move, or do you actually use liturgy that uses these words instead of ending with "Christ shall come again"?byron smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17938334606675769903noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-5864243749638651052010-05-10T05:52:03.059-04:002010-05-10T05:52:03.059-04:00Nice, orthodox! Still, Paul has "to zoan Chr...Nice, orthodox! Still, Paul has "to zoan Christos, kai to apothanein kerdos" (Phil 1:21).<br /><br />Over-confident orthodoxy always reminds me of Chesterton. Brilliant, but hard to take too seriously :PKarl Handhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12300226652913169193noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-57860445053571784542010-05-10T00:48:28.821-04:002010-05-10T00:48:28.821-04:00Thank you Kim!
EmersonThank you Kim!<br /><br />EmersonAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-8657907968993075302010-05-09T21:44:43.552-04:002010-05-09T21:44:43.552-04:00Thanks Kim.
Meditations on the deathliness of dea...Thanks Kim.<br /><br />Meditations on the deathliness of death has been making a big comeback in, of all places, fashion. John Galliano, Alexander McQueen, Hussein Chalayan, Viktor & Rolf and Martin Margiela have all exhibited "deathly" shows.Geri Russellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08498241210144694647noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-20058217298545617602010-05-09T13:50:42.046-04:002010-05-09T13:50:42.046-04:00PS - check out the new John Lewis ad everyone'...PS - check out the new John Lewis ad everyone's been banging on about. Same problems apply (I analyses it here:) http://thinkingblueguitars.wordpress.com/2010/04/30/john-lewis-ad-analysis/Daniel Hartleyhttp://thinkingblueguitars.wordpress.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-40705139718321395692010-05-09T13:44:36.419-04:002010-05-09T13:44:36.419-04:00This is absolutely wonderful!
Kim, I'm sure y...This is absolutely wonderful!<br /><br />Kim, I'm sure you've already read these things, but two texts came to mind when reading this: 1. Donne's 'The Relic' and 2. Don DeLillo's White Noise, which is one of the best fictional analyses of our modern fear of/ obsession with death I've ever read.<br /><br />Many thanks for this great sermon.Daniel Hartleyhttp://thinkingblueguitars.wordpress.com/noreply@blogger.com