tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post116064207966970134..comments2024-03-25T13:40:30.747-04:00Comments on Faith and Theology: Theology for beginners (19): ForgivenessBen Myershttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03800127501735910966noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-58740284657422196632010-04-05T14:22:30.675-04:002010-04-05T14:22:30.675-04:00First I agree with Benn 100%. Secondly, I see whe...First I agree with Benn 100%. Secondly, I see where Thomistic Guy is coming from as well. It is a concept harder to wrap our brains around than we think. It is easy to break apart any argument and find dirt in the crevises. Why would we be looking to break apart the argument of forgiveness? Why find dirt in this concept of debt cancellation rather than punishment. I believe the two different perspectives are based in part on the diferent ideas of who God really is and what God is about? I feel as though there is a battle of wits such as the one in The princess Bride where all of the divining of scripture and gleening of wisdom and exposing of illogic ends in God trumping us all and doing it His way despite what we think or believe. On one hand is God the wrath giver of punishments for our sin? Many scriptures can be used to support that idea. Is God a forgiver of out debts? Many scriptures can be used to support that idea as well. So the battle of wits begins and ends when you decide which goblet the poison is in and we both drink. Forgiveness is opposed to much of our logical concepts and structures of legal justice so I can clearly not choose the goblet in front of me. Yet it is clear that we should not expect that forgiveness from the State or governements so I can not choose the goblet in front of you. Forgiveness is at the core of the mission of christ and crucial to His purpose so I cannot choose the goblet in front of me. Yet if God were so forgiving there would be no reason for Christ to be sarificed and I cannot choose the goblet in front of you. As a Christian I must forgive my neighbor for the sins he has done to me in order to maintain the forgiveness my Lord has shown unto me so I cannot choose the goblet in front of me. As a member of society and user of common sense to forgive criminals and release the captives to sin again is insane and I cannot choose the goblet in front of me. As we battle with our wits it is clear that uor human wisdom is not of the same stuff that is God's wisdom. God does not expect us to discern His wisdom, but merely to shut up and have faith in His. As a human I cannot choose the goblet in front of either side because they are both filled with poison that can be used to destroy or faith and our enthusiasms for following Christ. If we try hard enough I am sure we can logically find many reasons ans cripturally based facts why God should not save any of us, and we may well come down on the side that says if that guy is able to be saved after committing such atrocities then send me to hell because I do not wish to be in the same room with that guy, much less heaven. It is musch better and easiser to use scipture to find discriminating reasons and logical order to say we are saved and you are not. We are the chosen because of this, that and the other, and you are condemned because you did, did not, and won't. The third idea is that somehow we are all saved despite logic that claims differently. We are all saved despite our sins, because if he goes to hell because of his sins then I surely go as well for my own sins are enough to build a stairway to heaven I could never climb. What to do? How are we saved? We could battle our wits to their ends and never know for sure.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02079430841037576632noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-70759521797994399432008-01-01T18:41:00.000-05:002008-01-01T18:41:00.000-05:00Hitler cancelled all debts, such as mortgage debts...Hitler cancelled all debts, such as mortgage debts, or debts the country owed to the WWI vitors. Should we call for the cancellation of all debts?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-1161057096729211212006-10-16T23:51:00.000-04:002006-10-16T23:51:00.000-04:00Hi Thomisticguy: thanks, I appreciate your thought...Hi Thomisticguy: thanks, I appreciate your thoughtful criticisms and suggestions, and I can see where you're coming from.<BR/><BR/>Best wishes,<BR/>BenBen Myershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03800127501735910966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-1160800818092403972006-10-14T00:40:00.000-04:002006-10-14T00:40:00.000-04:00Simply beautiful, Ben. I would heartily replace m...Simply beautiful, Ben. I would heartily replace my 10 theses on forgiveness with the statement: read Ben's post!David W. Congdonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03009330707703611224noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-1160717107108554032006-10-13T01:25:00.000-04:002006-10-13T01:25:00.000-04:00Amen and Amen.Amen and Amen.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-1160713743826554642006-10-13T00:29:00.000-04:002006-10-13T00:29:00.000-04:00Thanks for this great post. I was about to ask a s...Thanks for this great post. I was about to ask a similar question to Rob - how does forgiveness affect the way we think about present justice? Oliver O'Donovan says that it is this insight about forgiveness that has led to the distinction between criminal law and tort in Western societies - to remove the burden from the individual (who might forgive!) to seek justice. This is why it is <I>the state/crown</I> who prosecutes criminal cases. Thoughts?<BR/><BR/><I>Forgiveness is the opposite of being treated as we deserve to be treated. It is the opposite of restitutive justice. It is the opposite of “karma,” of reaping what has been sowed. It is the opposite of every kind of moral legalism. So too, it is the opposite of making amends for the past. It is the opposite of conditions, negotiation, exchange</I><BR/>I really appreciated this paragraph, and thought you could add that it is the opposite of being <I>excused</I>. The extent to which there are reasons that excuse one's behaviour is the extent to which the need for forgiveness is minimised. C. S. Lewis has an excellent little piece of this (<I>On Forgiveness</I>).byron smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17938334606675769903noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-1160701470656662162006-10-12T21:04:00.000-04:002006-10-12T21:04:00.000-04:00Hey Ben,As I ponder this excellent post, I think: ...Hey Ben,<BR/><BR/>As I ponder this excellent post, I think: What is the difference between vengeance and justice? Is it that in personal relationships, I should not seek vengeance, but when crimes are committed, do we seek justice from the authorities God has placed over us? <BR/><BR/>I mean, what does pardon mean? Imagine the situation, since we love to argue <I>ad hitlerum</I>, that Hitler was actually caught before he committed suicide. Should the courts, supposing they consisted of biblical, Spirit-filled Christians, have given justice or pardon if Hitler was repentant? (this is another question, I know, of whether pardon is given regardless of repentance).<BR/><BR/>This question isn't new, I bet, but just something I'm wondering. If you'd rather make a book recommendation(s), I'm cool with that too.<BR/><BR/>Keep up the fantastic blogging!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-1160686840553276252006-10-12T17:00:00.000-04:002006-10-12T17:00:00.000-04:00To your bibliography, I'd add the following: Dona...To your bibliography, I'd add the following: <BR/>Donald W. Shriver, Jr., An Ethic for Enemies: Forgiveness in Politics Oxford Univ. Press, 1995.<BR/><BR/>Desmond Tutu,No Future Without Forgiveness(Image Books, 2000).Michael Westmoreland-White, Ph.D.https://www.blogger.com/profile/06343135380354344847noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-1160670902404493532006-10-12T12:35:00.000-04:002006-10-12T12:35:00.000-04:00A gold star! Thanks, Ben.PS: I shall be forwardin...A gold star! Thanks, Ben.<BR/><BR/>PS: I shall be forwarding a copy to my bank manager.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com