tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post9111142843108899019..comments2024-03-12T03:53:57.725-04:00Comments on Faith and Theology: Tomáš Halík: atheism and patienceBen Myershttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03800127501735910966noreply@blogger.comBlogger36125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-82217647890037904772010-12-29T15:29:45.270-05:002010-12-29T15:29:45.270-05:00"Atheists are not wrong, only impatient"..."Atheists are not wrong, only impatient"... impatient for what? We all endure doubt whether we believe in god or not. Adopting a faith based answer in my opinion is just as "impatient" as seeking answers through science... in fact it's even MORE impatient because to me it demonstrates laziness as well; laziness by adopting a quick answer without taking the time or effort to seek and understand the vast amount of evolutionary evidence that already exists.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08569588917534969381noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-48345633915708235112010-10-11T23:37:39.130-04:002010-10-11T23:37:39.130-04:00Interestingly, I asked a young atheist here at the...Interestingly, I asked a young atheist here at the university I minister in what he thought about the idea of atheistic 'impatience'. His response was telling. He said that the whole idea of patience is of the wrong category for it to have any meaning for him. He doesn't experience his search for understanding as impatience and the suggestion didn't draw his ire merely his ambivalence.<br /><br />I wonder whether this is indicative. Is the whole notion of patience/impatience predicated on our relationship with God? If the world is simply there for our discovery, is it fair or appropriate to talk about patience at all?<br /><br />I have been reading Halik's essays and he has a lot of very good things to say but I'm not sure 'atheism as impatience' is as helpful as it first appears.Highanddryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00536030299423398163noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-50659658212963947982010-10-08T19:57:51.636-04:002010-10-08T19:57:51.636-04:00I haven't read the book but if you are correct...I haven't read the book but if you are correct that the summary of his argument is that "atheist are not wrong, only impatient...they want to resolve doubt instead of enduring it" then I'm unlikely to. <br /><br />I would say in fact it is believers who want doubt resolved, and they do this by having faith that god is the answer to the unexplained and unexplainable phenomona they experience. The atheist rather would simply admit, whilst waiting patiently, that the answers are unavailable. Nothing is added to the process of finding those answers by making stuff up.<br /><br />If faith is "a patient endurance of the ambiguity of the world and the experience of God's absence" then it really is only hope or wishful thinking. If faith is just about enduring a lack of answers until the answers become apparent (presumably at which point faith is no longer needed) or you die, then it is simply sensible reservation of judgement. What need then to invent god while you're waiting around?Crtopherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02095277829765513581noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-63250728402236763562010-10-07T18:43:46.829-04:002010-10-07T18:43:46.829-04:00I am Halik's student from Prague and I am very...I am Halik's student from Prague and I am very delighted that I discovered great review on one of the best book which he has written. It is pity that there is not english translation of his sermons. He is great preacher. Each sunday hundreds students (christians as well as atheists) are coming to listen his preaching.<br /><br />If you would like to read some shorter english text by Halik, there is link: http://www.halik.cz/ja/essays.php<br /><br />I do not agree with Halik many times (I have read all his books, I have done seminars and exams with him) but he is great thinker and really good interpret of the phenomenon of atheism.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09782088826262164349noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-18784108385112462162010-10-06T04:49:06.884-04:002010-10-06T04:49:06.884-04:00my feeling for a while now has been that Christian...my feeling for a while now has been that Christians undersell the doctrine of the fall - this IS the world without God. Unless there's a resurrection. We waste energy trying to believe God is involved in ways he's deprecated in favour of his followers.Anglican Parish of Yarravillehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02500797735250631471noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-31765978996730173662010-09-27T13:45:35.416-04:002010-09-27T13:45:35.416-04:00"I'll look forward to reading this book. ..."I'll look forward to reading this book. It will be nice to get a non-Western Christian perspective on faith and atheism. Thanks for the post."<br /><br />drspainhour, I hate to have to tell you this but the Czech Republic is in the West, and Monsignor Halik is a member of the Roman Catholic church's Pontifical Council for Dialogue with Non-Believers. Maybe we could get Kim Fabricius to read him?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-13886926237159306542010-09-27T13:31:34.821-04:002010-09-27T13:31:34.821-04:00"In contrast to the overblown rhetoric of so ..."In contrast to the overblown rhetoric of so many Christian apologists – with their drastic naivety about the ambivalence of the natural world and the intractable difficulties of believing" <br /><br />You mean, like, Thomas Aquinas? Or Saint Paul? You know, Romans 1:20 and all. Drastic naivety? You'll be telling us you don't believe in Miracles next.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-32904044644360181762010-09-22T03:35:36.650-04:002010-09-22T03:35:36.650-04:00Pk, on your point, Nigel Biggar has a book on Bart...Pk, on your point, Nigel Biggar has a book on Barth's ethics with the distinctive title <i>The Hastening That Waits</i> (1993).kim fabriciusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-3165696471859377422010-09-21T22:31:09.861-04:002010-09-21T22:31:09.861-04:00"My God, my God, why have you abandoned me?&q..."My God, my God, why have you abandoned me?"...hmmmm....davehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14140469123129744842noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-47291010638301837692010-09-21T20:22:11.577-04:002010-09-21T20:22:11.577-04:00never heard of him but sounds like an interesting ...never heard of him but sounds like an interesting guy...<br />his theme of patience is also there in barth, with his eschatological realism...<br />isn't that really 'the' theological problem? waiting for the coming Lord?<br />pkpknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-57039603528509032382010-09-21T20:20:24.004-04:002010-09-21T20:20:24.004-04:00Tom Frame's "Losing My Religion" is ...Tom Frame's "Losing My Religion" is an excellent addition to this kind of reflection.davehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14140469123129744842noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-15868286065722692482010-09-21T07:37:16.085-04:002010-09-21T07:37:16.085-04:00You're right: a Christian response to atheism ...You're right: a Christian response to atheism is seemingly absent in contemporary apologetics, especially by those who treat the Bible as a textbook of cosmology, biology, and history (in the modern sense of the word).<br /><br />I'll look forward to reading this book. It will be nice to get a non-Western Christian perspective on faith and atheism. Thanks for the post.KifuCoffeeRoasterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13312289979498701749noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-2019995487688877482010-09-20T16:14:08.349-04:002010-09-20T16:14:08.349-04:00Echoing (i think) jridenour and kevshaw: there is...Echoing (i think) jridenour and kevshaw: there is a real question here about the relation between the temporal and the ontological. To construe patience as the proper practice of the believer is to deny the excess of temporality (over being) that is at least one tendency of patience. Perhaps patience involves the divestment of any ability to believe that the being upon which one waits is there. Perhaps the patient must suffer the loss of ontological security, and thus lose the very ability to set her/himself at odds with the atheist. In other words, one could imagine the insistence that God exists as a kind of impatience, an unwillingness to wait into a time that would extend beyond the time of presence.dbarberhttp://itself.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-91403889667504162242010-09-19T17:06:49.957-04:002010-09-19T17:06:49.957-04:00Why should impatience be construed as negative? &#...Why should impatience be construed as negative? 'Patience' is just a way of putting things, it doesn't carry that much freight on its own either way. <br /><br />The faithful should be patient with God, not complacent, and that means they need some amount of impatience, too. See the psalm: O you my help, come quickly to my aid. <br /><br />Perhaps for some atheists the experience of God's absence is sharper than for some Christians. They've had to bear with more, thus they are in practice more patient. More faithful. <br /><br />The kind of atheist I admire is the one who denies God's presence. I can't see the merit in an atheism that denies both God's presence and God's absence, i.e. it's not a problem either way. When atheism wrestles with the question of God and the 'death of God' sincerely, it is faithful along the lines of Bonhoeffer's non-religious Christianity.<br /><br />Just some thoughts.kevshawhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17172542021035978179noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-38147481666979234202010-09-19T12:17:19.754-04:002010-09-19T12:17:19.754-04:00Are there any other of Halik's works available...Are there any other of Halik's works available in English?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-51626487435723717012010-09-19T02:44:25.679-04:002010-09-19T02:44:25.679-04:00I'm sympathetic to jridenour's position. T...I'm sympathetic to jridenour's position. There is something about Halik's 'patience' that smacks of condescension, but I can't quite place it.<br /><br />I don't know a single atheist who would not feel a little heat rising under their collar at the suggestion that their atheistic conclusions where merely the product of impatience.<br /><br />While I do feel like I live in doubt as a faithful man, there are many Christians (at least) who proclaim wholeheartedly that faith is certainty not doubt. Certainty in things not seen yes, but not certainty in things doubted. The notion would be anathema to many.<br /><br />What Halik seems to be suggesting is a more nuanced understanding of faith that takes doubt seriously. I am reminded of Thomas Merton: <br /><br />"Let no one hope to find in contemplation an escape from conflict, from anguish or from doubt. On the contrary, the deep, inexpressible certitude of the contemplative experience awakens a tragic anguish and opens many questions in the depths of the heart like wounds that cannot stop bleeding. For every gain in deep certitude there is a corresponding growth of superficial ‘doubt.’ This doubt is by no means opposed to genuine faith, but it mercilessly examines and questions the spurious ‘faith’ of everyday life, the human faith which is nothing but the passive acceptance of conventional opinion." <br /><br />I know many scientist who would say the same is true of scientific inquiry as it seeks to uncover the truth behind our assumptions.Highanddryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00536030299423398163noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-7549050228891811522010-09-18T10:32:43.810-04:002010-09-18T10:32:43.810-04:00I find this whole idea that believers have patienc...I find this whole idea that believers have patience and atheists don't to be naive. Although I can appreciate the refusal to engage in outright polemics, I can't help but wonder if this is another underhanded apologetic move.<br /><br />In this analysis, believers are patient, complex, and mature people who can hold out hope in the face of suffering. Whereas atheists are simple-minded, impatient, immature people who lack the strength to stay patient with God . Atheists are black and white thinkers who can't live with doubt. What if atheists have in fact been patient with God and come out of the experience not believing? If the difference between believers and atheists is merely patience isn't it being assumed that if one endures through the doubt then faith surely result? What about the person who holds out hope in midst of doubt and never comes to have faith? That would seem to suggest that one no longer can have this idea of "patience" to help distinguish between believers and atheists.<br /><br />I just think this is another attempt for believers to congratulate themselves for being more patient and able to tolerate ambiguity as opposed to the simplistic, impatient atheist.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-9108434791966658132010-09-18T08:50:13.883-04:002010-09-18T08:50:13.883-04:00Theology isn't only for the "Christian fa...Theology isn't only for the "Christian faith." And devout so-called vegans and vegetarians eat meat and dairy products that are mixed in with their cheese, bread, noodles all day long, whether they intend to or not. It's difficult to be a pure vegetarian, or pious atheist.<br /><br />As for "Patience with God" what a grand idea! For some reason I won't analyze just yet, reminds me of "if you see Buddha on the road kill him."Studentnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-690150222709690382010-09-18T05:24:56.679-04:002010-09-18T05:24:56.679-04:00I know Halik through Cambridge Centre for Jewish-C...I know Halik through Cambridge Centre for Jewish-Christian Relations, and until recently I haven't really seen the value of his religious phenomenology and theology to the wider debate on faith and culture.<br /><br /> What you wrote here about patience in the face of God's existence and "goodness of doubt" reminds me very much of Tillich. I also have Halik's Patience with God on my reading list as a result of your review.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06994275115877177428noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-13709493868870750552010-09-18T00:18:23.099-04:002010-09-18T00:18:23.099-04:00Ughhh, I never thought I'd encounter such expl...Ughhh, I never thought I'd encounter such explicit natural theology at F&T. This is pure pietism.<br /><br />Mr. Halik's inadvertent degradation of the Word of God to a common, neutralized "experience" does no justice to the intrinsic nature of atheism, nor does it do justice to the Christian faith (which is finally all a theologian should be concerned about).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-78929093615023403702010-09-17T23:02:01.315-04:002010-09-17T23:02:01.315-04:00"Faith is patience with God."
awesome. ..."Faith is patience with God."<br /><br />awesome. awesome. awesome.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13622708504225609852noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-79860914274596417562010-09-17T19:35:05.979-04:002010-09-17T19:35:05.979-04:00Fascinating comments following this post.
My twin ...Fascinating comments following this post.<br />My twin brother is an atheist whereas I am a Christian. I've found that sharing with him about how God meets with us through his creation is helping him see God in new ways.<br />Pop over to my blog and see.<br />www.evangelistchanging.blogspot.comEvangelist Changinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16141233916835592363noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-33590362502895687312010-09-17T17:15:28.133-04:002010-09-17T17:15:28.133-04:00It's impossible for me to know if another pers...It's impossible for me to know if another person or group of people does or doesn't "experience" God. For more, read "The Varieties of Religious Experience" by Wm. James.<br /><br />I say atheists DO experience God; for He's everywhere, in DNA, electrons, nature, electricity, books, universe, weather, art, music, thinking feeling....cosmic glue, quantum forces, spirit. Yes, atheists have spirit too, are spiritual beings, as are we all.Studentnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-75460087505823807192010-09-17T01:34:09.337-04:002010-09-17T01:34:09.337-04:00Both atheists and Christians share the same experi...Both atheists and Christians share the same experience? <br /><br />Christians 'experience' the absence of God.<br /><br />Atheists experience NO God. <br /><br />The cleavage between those two experiences is actually an infinite gulf.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-81494752099721257882010-09-16T22:28:50.853-04:002010-09-16T22:28:50.853-04:00This is interesting theology (and phenomenology), ...This is interesting theology (and phenomenology), and from a Catholic! I think that the reference to ambiguity, and by inference to an existential outlook may well be a crucial aspect of Halik's project. Patience also can refer to our capacity to be open to existential issues/questions that may never be resolved to a (presumedly analytic) philosopher's satisfaction, and, also, to a long view of culture, history, and the vagaries of human self-awareness. There are first-rate philosophers who will say "I am not a Naturalist", and who worship God. Halik appears to be offering both a historical and experiential context for their position.<br />DWLindemanAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com