tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post6766701667301014650..comments2024-03-25T13:40:30.747-04:00Comments on Faith and Theology: A five-year ban on the word "trinitarian"Ben Myershttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03800127501735910966noreply@blogger.comBlogger34125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-8040257040952307282008-08-07T02:00:00.000-04:002008-08-07T02:00:00.000-04:00Due to problems with Blogger, some of the comments...Due to problems with Blogger, some of the comments have been mysteriously disappearing from this thread. But anyway, I'll try to respond to Dale's (now vanished) comment, which asked for info regarding my statement that <I>the English term “Trinitarian” was first used, in the 16th and 17th centuries, as a pejorative description of anti-trinitarians; the heretics were dubbed “Trinitarians”</I>.<BR/><BR/>I've come across this in my own reading of primary texts. But I also checked it in the OED (you'll need to consult the full version, not the Shorter Oxford) – the OED traces this history as well, with various examples from the 16th to the 18th century.Ben Myershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03800127501735910966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-82984734756103418842008-08-07T01:50:00.000-04:002008-08-07T01:50:00.000-04:00It’s interesting to note that the English term “Tr...<I>It’s interesting to note that the English term “Trinitarian” was first used, in the 16th and 17th centuries, as a pejorative description of anti-trinitarians; the heretics were dubbed “Trinitarians”!</I><BR/><BR/>Citations, please! Seriously... I'm curious to know where you got this.<BR/><BR/>Gracias,DaleAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-78039195633938566372008-08-06T21:11:00.000-04:002008-08-06T21:11:00.000-04:00It’s interesting to note that the English term “Tr...<I>It’s interesting to note that the English term “Trinitarian” was first used, in the 16th and 17th centuries, as a pejorative description of anti-trinitarians; the heretics were dubbed “Trinitarians”!</I><BR/><BR/>Citations, please! Seriously... I'm curious to know where you got this.<BR/><BR/>Gracias,<BR/>DaleThe Theisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02226968954880740344noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-24025241917919008032008-08-06T15:14:00.000-04:002008-08-06T15:14:00.000-04:00Dialectical Materialism is, of course, trinitarian...Dialectical Materialism is, of course, trinitarian. The thesis spawns the antithesis by monogenesis, and holding the two together in perfect unity is the synthesis which proceeds from ... well, depending whether you're an Eastern or a Western Communist, either the thesis or both the thesis and the antithesis.<BR/><BR/>We mathematicians have always known that there are only 10 sorts of people in the world: those who understand ternary, those who know they don't, and those who think they do but actually don't.<BR/><BR/>Yours in Christ - JOHN HARTLEYAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-15052815755373101122008-08-06T14:41:00.000-04:002008-08-06T14:41:00.000-04:00I am probably guilty of this kind of vague usage, ...I am probably guilty of this kind of vague usage, but I plead context: I go to a church that is so feminist that it is hard to get people to use masculine pronouns for God--even mixed with feminine ones. I am surrounded by modalists who don't know they are such!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-59242737741722939362008-08-06T03:28:00.000-04:002008-08-06T03:28:00.000-04:00Andrew: God be praised! Truly we have been blesse...Andrew: God be praised! Truly we have been blessed through your blog post.<BR/><BR/>Sorry, Ben, your noble sentiments have been declared null and void by the Almighty Trinitarian God of Christian Confession, who speaketh truly triunely through St Andrew. There is no overtrinitarianism here, just the movement of God.<BR/><BR/>So rather than talking theology, let's just get back to what <I>the Bible</I> says, and we'll all be okay... Amen?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-33473715931623106952008-08-06T00:06:00.000-04:002008-08-06T00:06:00.000-04:00I don't mean to suggest that we should return to p...I don't mean to suggest that we should return to preovertrinitarian ways of thinking. Those days are gone for good. But I've high hopes that this discussion will usher in a new age of postovertrinitarianity.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-11057846102165464502008-08-05T22:26:00.000-04:002008-08-05T22:26:00.000-04:00I'm definitely pro-non-overtrinitarianist to the p...I'm definitely pro-non-overtrinitarianist to the point of being anti-pro-undertrinitarianist.<BR/><BR/>In fact, ours should be a trapezoidal model.Andrew Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08300767315976122071noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-77158801488400777942008-08-05T21:26:00.000-04:002008-08-05T21:26:00.000-04:00Hi Jonathan: Egad, you're right! There's far too m...Hi Jonathan: Egad, you're right! There's far too much overtrinitarianism in this discussion. We definitely need a bit more non-overtrinitarianness.Ben Myershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03800127501735910966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-58361082806178960072008-08-05T21:20:00.000-04:002008-08-05T21:20:00.000-04:00Ben,Far too many of your respondents are violating...Ben,<BR/><BR/>Far too many of your respondents are violating the ban on this very thread. I hope you're taking note of who they are. But then it's hard to be critical of overtrinitarianism without talking trinitarianly.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-34277531612644003412008-08-05T17:56:00.000-04:002008-08-05T17:56:00.000-04:00Terry: It's a miracle! I declare this blog post t...Terry: It's a miracle! I declare this blog post to be a holy site. Make pilgrimage at once!Andrew Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08300767315976122071noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-72072483749301832092008-08-05T17:08:00.000-04:002008-08-05T17:08:00.000-04:00Ben,Take this in the same tongue-in-cheek spirit.P...Ben,<BR/><BR/>Take this in the same tongue-in-cheek spirit.<BR/><BR/>Perhaps what we need is not a ban on this or that theological word or set of words, but a ban on theology itself. Call it "The Overbeck Ban." Only when we realize how much we can say and do as if God does not exist, can we then realize what talk of God might actually mean. And this coming from someone who hopes soon to earn a living doing theology!JKnotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13567721786402019427noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-25849868077407047652008-08-05T12:13:00.000-04:002008-08-05T12:13:00.000-04:00I don't think Gunton is really the problem. First ...I don't think Gunton is really the problem. First of all, Gunton diagnoses precisely this problem very aptly (cf. the introduction to the second edition of <I>The Promise of Trinitarian Theology</I>. He is also very precise in the distinctions he draws as well as the connections he makes; he is no simplistic social trinitarian, even if the claims he does advance still merit critique. <BR/><BR/>The simple affixing of epitaphs is no better a mode of theological argumentation than sloganeering, indeed they seem to be two sides of the same coin.<BR/><BR/>I think the problem with the whole "trinitarian bandwagon" really comes largely from Moltmann who is far more well known and, honestly, far worse of a theologian than Gunton. Moltmann plays far to loose and fast to be of any real theological help most of the time, not withstanding some of his early quality work (<I>Theology of Hope</I> and <I>The Crucified God</I> were clearly his best works).Haldenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03936185959033443640noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-44007919826154081412008-08-05T12:08:00.000-04:002008-08-05T12:08:00.000-04:00Well, I did say 'sort of'...Well, I did say 'sort of'...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-35767302074093568352008-08-05T11:42:00.000-04:002008-08-05T11:42:00.000-04:00Terry, I'm not so sure. Gunton was just jumping o...Terry, I'm not so sure. Gunton was just jumping on Barth's bandwagon, so I might want to counterargue that he's still the major source of the problem and thus cannot be excused.David W. Congdonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03009330707703611224noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-45884605108567720912008-08-05T06:25:00.000-04:002008-08-05T06:25:00.000-04:00When I was a student they sent me to a church as p...When I was a student they sent me to a church as part of my introduction to what ministry is really like, and the vicar told me to go and see how the communion table was set out. So I went and watched the lady doing it, who gave me a running commentary.<BR/><BR/>"<B>We always fold the communion cloths in three</B>," she said. "That's <B>because of the Trinity</B>."<BR/><BR/>"Really?" I replied. "I never knew that. Please tell me: <B>Which bit of the cloth is for the Father, which bit is for the Son, and which bit is for the Holy Spirit?</B>"<BR/><BR/>She looked at me as if I were completely daft.<BR/><BR/>Which I suppose I was.<BR/><BR/>Yours in Christ - JOHN HARTLEY.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-50643738990363393522008-08-05T04:02:00.000-04:002008-08-05T04:02:00.000-04:00Personally, Ben, I think Gunton can be excused as ...Personally, Ben, I think Gunton can be excused as it was his bandwagon (sort of) on which everyone else has jumped!<BR/><BR/>By the way, Andrew: if you removed all the relevant letters, how did you type 'cap' and 'Now'? I'm confused.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-87336085888318464902008-08-05T02:57:00.000-04:002008-08-05T02:57:00.000-04:00Evan: thanks for that brilliant post — great stuff...Evan: thanks for that brilliant post — great stuff!<BR/><BR/>Andrew: thanks for your hilarious comment!<BR/><BR/>David: Oh yeah, I forgot about your article. Since I liked your article, and since it even contains actual exegesis (not just edifying patterns of threeness), we'll make a special exemption in your case. But don't let me catch you using that adverb...<BR/><BR/>Halden: you're absolutely right, of course, that the problem lies not with the <I>word itself</I> but with the <I>practice</I> of substituting slogans for thought. But words aren't innocent either: once a word has been completely co-opted for sloganeering purposes, it can be wiser to abandon its use altogether. For example, I'd never bother trying to find a positive way to use "emergent" or "incarnational" or (as Kyle says) "inclusive/tolerant". As for "trinitarian", I think it's certainly useful as a descriptive/historical adjective (e.g. the trinitarian formula, the trinitarian dogma of Nicaea, etc) — but any normative/theological use will have to work hard to distance itself from all the sloganeering.<BR/><BR/>Anon: <I>"Good grief what did the word do to you to deserve such a rant?"</I> Alas, if you knew how much time I've spent reading contemporary theology, you'd know the answer... But anyway, even though the post was just a tongue-in-cheek rant, I was still trying to make a serious point. And I think rants of this kind are justifiable, since the whole history of theology is, after all, a series of disputes over the use and meaning of words.Ben Myershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03800127501735910966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-29501202803173263282008-08-05T01:33:00.000-04:002008-08-05T01:33:00.000-04:00Further research tells me that the actual code nam...Further research tells me that the actual code name for the first atomic test was Trinity as well.<BR/><BR/>A rather heavy piece of cultural baggage and association.<BR/><BR/>A description by Brigadier General Thomas Farrell of his response to the event.<BR/><BR/>"The effects could well be called unprecedented, magnificent, beautiful, stupendous, terrifying....The whole country was lighted by a searing light with an intensity many times that of the midday sun. It was golden, purple, violet, gray, and blue. It lighted every peak, crevasse, and ridge of the nearby mountain range with a clarity and beauty that cannot be described but must be seen to be imagined. It was the beauty that great poets dream about but describe most poorly and inadequately."<BR/><BR/>Reads and sounds like a beatific vision doesnt it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-67388527263969138592008-08-04T21:38:00.000-04:002008-08-04T21:38:00.000-04:00The worlds first nuclear bomb was exploded at TRIN...The worlds first nuclear bomb was exploded at TRINITY New Mexico.<BR/><BR/>It is possible to argue that such an event was the inevitable culmination of the drive to total power and control at the root of the entire western cultural project.<BR/><BR/>And a "potent" symbol for the almost total dis-integration (smithereening) of Western culture by 1945. <BR/><BR/>And a signifier of the total world-wide cultural devastation that was to occur over the next 60 years.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-41731529148488963042008-08-04T18:14:00.000-04:002008-08-04T18:14:00.000-04:00I'm all for it. In fact, I'm going to remove the ...I'm all for it. In fact, I'm going to remove the appropriate keys from my keyboard so I can't type it any more. Oh cap. Now 'm up sh ceek.Andrew Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08300767315976122071noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-52526657317372954882008-08-04T14:04:00.000-04:002008-08-04T14:04:00.000-04:00Mark Twain said, "As to the Adjective: when in dou...Mark Twain said, "As to the Adjective: when in doubt, strike it out." (As, for example, in Logos <I>asarkos</I>. ;))<BR/><BR/>For a "theology of adjectives", I'd get Screwtape to write it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-5932857717917881902008-08-04T12:38:00.000-04:002008-08-04T12:38:00.000-04:00Hmm...I seem to have introduced a needless redunda...Hmm...I seem to have introduced a needless redundancy into the first sentence of my last paragraph above. Perhaps I'm not qualified to expostulate on the proper use of theological adjectives when I can't even form a proper English sentence!Haldenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03936185959033443640noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-59525835543505119462008-08-04T12:35:00.000-04:002008-08-04T12:35:00.000-04:00Let me throw myself on the grenade here...I like G...Let me throw myself on the grenade here...<BR/><BR/>I like Gunton, even if I don't agree with him as much as I did eight years ago. And I like the word Trinitarian. Trinitarianly might be stretching it a bit, but I'm not opposed to it.<BR/><BR/>I think the problem is more the sort of sloganeering that takes place in theology that is the problem, rather than the words that make up the slogans themselves. In other words, perhaps we don't need a moratorium on the word Trinitiarian, but rather a full-fledged <I>theology of adjectives</I> and their proper theological use.Haldenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03936185959033443640noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-1598585148146489432008-08-04T12:13:00.000-04:002008-08-04T12:13:00.000-04:00I'm with you in spirit, but I'm hoping to write my...I'm with you in spirit, but I'm hoping to write my dissertation within the period of the moratorium. As the likely topic of said dissertation is the Trinity in Augustine, Bernard of Clairvaux, and Richard of St. Victor, I'm probably going to require an occasional adjective meaning "of or pertaining to the Trinity." As for the adverb, I've used it a few times as a joke. If I ever do that again, I'll include a footnote to make sure the reader knows it's a joke.<BR/><BR/>But since we're compiling an index verborum prohibitorum, might I suggest "inclusive" (never mind that it's too easy a target)?Kylehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10246379448251300151noreply@blogger.com