tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post6498777407707727221..comments2024-03-25T13:40:30.747-04:00Comments on Faith and Theology: Twelve great filmic Christ figuresBen Myershttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03800127501735910966noreply@blogger.comBlogger48125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-84647679943953244872007-06-10T02:42:00.000-04:002007-06-10T02:42:00.000-04:00Tyler Dureden - Fight Club See this post for expal...Tyler Dureden - Fight Club <A HREF="http://achurchlessfaith.blogspot.com/2007/01/gospel-of-fight-club.html" REL="nofollow">See this post for expalnation</A>Chrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16332151418480277961noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-37848834112593454442007-06-06T12:10:00.000-04:002007-06-06T12:10:00.000-04:00How about Owen Wilson's Dignan in Bottle Rocket (1...How about Owen Wilson's Dignan in Bottle Rocket (1996)? Although his "Christlike" was necessary due to his own devices and schemes, his action at the end is really powerful.D. W. McClainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01174944157230384492noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-44758286221324575562007-06-06T08:59:00.000-04:002007-06-06T08:59:00.000-04:00... the donkey in Au Hasard Balthasar ...... the donkey in Au Hasard Balthasar ...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-10153278131892264692007-06-05T22:46:00.000-04:002007-06-05T22:46:00.000-04:00Hi Andre,Thanks for that sharp comment. And it's ...Hi Andre,<BR/><BR/>Thanks for that sharp comment. And it's good to see someone who knows and admires the late Gillian Rose, a mentor and friend of Rowan Williams.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-52610667607283680862007-06-05T18:04:00.000-04:002007-06-05T18:04:00.000-04:00Hey Derek. Yeah, I would want to make a distinctio...Hey Derek. Yeah, I would want to make a distinction between sentementality and emotion. Basically, I think a sentimental film is one that does not make us, the audience, complicit, and so conforms to our expectations. It gives us what we want (or think we want), but doesn't challenge the way that we see things. We remain competent surveyors of the good and the bad, and are never confronted with the truth about ourselves. A good example of this is Schlindler's List (as the late Gillian Rose has pointed out). This would all need to be developed much further of course. But I definitely agree with you that we shouldn't rule out emotion at all. A good example of a film that is intensely emotional but not (on my reading) sentimental is Liv Ulmann's "Faithless (Trolosa)". "The Hours" is another good example. It's also worth mentioning Oscar Wilde here, who was a master at exposing a morality that had become sentimental. "A Good Woman" (an adaptation of Wilde's "Lady Windermere's Fan") is worth watching in this respect.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-9974560703450717542007-06-05T15:12:00.000-04:002007-06-05T15:12:00.000-04:00Andre, i really appreciate your point regarding re...Andre, i really appreciate your point regarding redemptive violence. I think that we need to admit that there is a "shadow-side to redemption." How can Jesus redeem unclean people without at some point, in some sense, get His hands dirty? "He who had no sin became sin . . ."<BR/><BR/>My other question is why are emotionally driven portrayals of Christ-figures written off as being excessively emotional or as being insincere (sentimental)? <BR/><BR/>Shouldn't stories that connect with the redemptive drama of Christ evoke strong, maybe even uncomfortably strong, emotions in us? Why is this bad or invalid? Why would you want to deal with redemption without invoking emotions, even over the top ones at times? To me we are often overly emotional creatures, so i don't see why we would want to eliminate that from redemption. I fear it is b/c somewhere along the line we have begun to believe we are above all that.<BR/><BR/>Am i missing something here?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-62786656267257477872007-06-05T08:35:00.000-04:002007-06-05T08:35:00.000-04:00Theodora,I'm quite pleased to hear that you will b...Theodora,<BR/><BR/>I'm quite pleased to hear that you will be giving a paper on <I>Magnolia</I>, and I can only wish I were doing the same. It's been a dream of mine for some time to give a paper on the theology resident in P.T. Anderson's films. I think I may work on a book someday -- something like <I>The Gospel According to P.T. Anderson</I>.<BR/><BR/>I wish I could be at the conference. Sadly, the distance and expense are too much.David W. Congdonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03009330707703611224noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-39124062382704394342007-06-05T06:22:00.000-04:002007-06-05T06:22:00.000-04:00Kim. Although mine would be different, I like your...Kim. Although mine would be different, I like your list. I wonder if you'd considered Donnie Brasco (played by Johnny Depp) from the brilliant film of the same name? While he does do some maiming, I think he well fulfills the criteria you list. On the film, see http://imdb.com/title/tt0119008/Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-89611968816000886302007-06-04T21:47:00.000-04:002007-06-04T21:47:00.000-04:00I think you've made an excellent point, Andre. Lik...I think you've made an excellent point, Andre. Like you, I generally prefer morally ambiguous films over straightforwardly "redemptive" ones. As you say, <I>The Hours</I> (one of my favourites) is a brilliant example; perhaps other examples would be <I>The Godfather</I>, <I>Dogville</I>, <I>Children of Men</I>, and <I>Candy</I> (admittedly there is a redemptive theme in this one, but it's <I>very</I> unsentimental).Ben Myershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03800127501735910966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-4521009460393583202007-06-04T21:22:00.000-04:002007-06-04T21:22:00.000-04:00I love the way this post has provoked us to think ...I love the way this post has provoked us to think about violence. Perhaps the interesting question we need to ask is how the characters in question transform the violent worlds they live in - not necessarily without using force, but without violating those around them. I like the movie Instinct (not be be confused with basic intinct) in this regardAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-85962519145517053522007-06-04T20:56:00.000-04:002007-06-04T20:56:00.000-04:00That's really interesting, Ben. I can definitely s...That's really interesting, Ben. I can definitely see why Barth would like Dietrich. Who doesn't? <BR/>re: redemptive violence... yes, it is definitely an oxymoron, and it shouldn't be confused with the very different notion of tragedy. And yet, don't certain scenes in the drama of Christ compel us to wrestle with the possibility that there might be a shadow-side to redemption? If the finitude that the Word takes on in the<BR/>incarnation is real finitude, then we must at some point talk about the costliness of the via crucis, and not just a costliness that Christ internalises, but a costliness that others must bear on acocunt of Christ's actions. MacKinnon suggests that Lenin is a kind of parable of Christ in this regard. I reckon that (as someone else mentioned above), Buffy might be equally fitting. Admittedly she does put a human being into a coma (Faith), and she does kill Angel when he has a soul, so the non-violence clause would rule her out. And she is a tv. charachter. But she does save the world. A lot. And Joss Whedon never lets us forget the cost of the redemption she brings, either to herself or to others. It is a real costliness, and one that we can't imagine being put right. <BR/>Two questions here... 1. is it possible to think redemption without sentementalising it? Whedon, I think, does finally fail here, (as do movies like The Shawkshank Redemption) but perhaps there is no way of not failing? So the question is whether certain failures are more appropriate than others here? (I wonder whether Bonhoeffer's comment about Christology and silence is to the point). 2. It seems to me that the most valuable films are not ones in which we can discern Christ figures per se, but one's that make us, as students of theology and believers, work harder, films that make it more difficult for us to say what we must say about God's redemptive work. I think "The Hours" is a good example of this kind of film. I was wondering whether anyone had any suggestions about other films in this regard?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-80337427507831180212007-06-04T20:41:00.000-04:002007-06-04T20:41:00.000-04:00Wow, the nonviolence angle really does cut out a l...Wow, the nonviolence angle really does cut out a lot of obvious and cool Christ figures - Neo, from The Matrix, for example. <BR/><BR/>However, sticking within the parameters I'd have to say my two favorite are both little girls: from <I>The Whale Rider</I> and <I>Pan's Labyrinth</I>.Aric Clarkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15241157655075444268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-5505530966076088962007-06-04T20:32:00.000-04:002007-06-04T20:32:00.000-04:00How about the 'mad' scientist in Instinct (played ...How about the 'mad' scientist in Instinct (played by Anthony Hopkins - but perhaps he hasn't completely repented of his violence<BR/><BR/>How about the retired violinist/choirmaster in 'as it is in heaven'Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-67106282109519738492007-06-04T20:19:00.000-04:002007-06-04T20:19:00.000-04:00Frodo, Aragorn and Gandalf all capture different e...Frodo, Aragorn and Gandalf all capture different elements of a Christ figure, though all but Frodo fail on violence. I could be just forgetting something, but is Frodo ever violent?byron smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17938334606675769903noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-79049535077382701762007-06-04T18:58:00.000-04:002007-06-04T18:58:00.000-04:00Good point, Shane. In fact, Barth himself loved go...Good point, Shane. In fact, Barth himself loved going to see films, and he was infatuated with the gorgeous Marlene Dietrich. In a letter, he speculated about including her in the <I>Church Dogmatics</I>: "I don't know where she will have a mention in the <I>Dogmatics</I> -- perhaps in eschatology." So that proves your point!Ben Myershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03800127501735910966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-64351059788518913802007-06-04T18:26:00.000-04:002007-06-04T18:26:00.000-04:00A Mathematical Curiosity:The number of Christ figu...A Mathematical Curiosity:<BR/><BR/>The number of Christ figures the one perceives in contemporary cinema is directly proportional to the vehemence of one's rejection of natural theology.<BR/><BR/>C = bN, <BR/><BR/>where C is # of Christ-figures, N is vehemence of rejection of Natural Theology and b is a scaling factor (measured in barths).<BR/><BR/>The paradoxical quality of this function is evident in the case where N expands without bound. As the rejection of God's operation within nature to protect the unique mediatorial role of Christ approaches infinity, the number of Christ figures in contemporary culture also expands without bound--making every character in every contemporary movie, book, and song a Christ-figure. <BR/><BR/>Prof. Barth could not be reached for comment as his rapid subterranean rotation had caused the ground near his grave to break asunder prohibiting communication.Shanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14594090275917087869noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-36859930077372846072007-06-04T16:34:00.000-04:002007-06-04T16:34:00.000-04:00Il Postino -- great suggestion, Anon!<I>Il Postino</I> -- great suggestion, Anon!Ben Myershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03800127501735910966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-8515603245201412842007-06-04T15:47:00.000-04:002007-06-04T15:47:00.000-04:00Pablo Neruda -- Il Postino (The Postman, not to be...Pablo Neruda -- Il Postino (The Postman, not to be confused with the similarly titled ill-fated Costner flick). <BR/><BR/>If you could have the imagination to construe the violence theologically, Clint Eastwood in Unforgiven. Imitatio Christi is a little too narrow to contain some of the best Christ figures. Chew on that!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-89529512569308276852007-06-04T15:17:00.000-04:002007-06-04T15:17:00.000-04:00So, I'm guessing Jack Bauer is out of the running?...So, I'm guessing Jack Bauer is out of the running?Chedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04008363735281618528noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-19990438932769307972007-06-04T14:12:00.000-04:002007-06-04T14:12:00.000-04:00David - I'm giving a paper on P.T Anderson's "Magn...David - I'm giving a paper on P.T Anderson's "Magnolia" at the American Academy of Religion in San Diego in November this year. They're also screening the film. Come along!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-73911876076958033462007-06-04T13:28:00.001-04:002007-06-04T13:28:00.001-04:00How about:1) John Keating in Dead Poets Society2) ...How about:<BR/><BR/>1) John Keating in Dead Poets Society<BR/><BR/>2) Frodo Baggins<BR/><BR/>3) The horse in Seabiscuit<BR/><BR/>4) Jimmy in Hoosiers<BR/><BR/>5) Jar Jar Binks (just kidding)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-16759490377894308442007-06-04T13:28:00.000-04:002007-06-04T13:28:00.000-04:00I second Vassilip's choice of Johannes in Ordet. A...I second Vassilip's choice of Johannes in <I>Ordet</I>. As for sci-fi, how about James Cole in <I>12 Monkeys</I>?joel hunterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03680719551624473328noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-42222004608740439052007-06-04T13:20:00.000-04:002007-06-04T13:20:00.000-04:00Cinema gloriae -- very nice! Indeed, the reason I...<I>Cinema gloriae</I> -- very nice! Indeed, the reason I love directors like P. T. Anderson is that he makes <I>cinema crucis</I>.<BR/><BR/>Fred, thanks for mentioning Walker Percy and <I>Lancelot</I> -- an under-read author and an under-read book. Both are fantastic.David W. Congdonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03009330707703611224noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-75825030394569267432007-06-04T13:11:00.000-04:002007-06-04T13:11:00.000-04:00Superman and the Mel Gibson film? I would be incli...Superman and the Mel Gibson film? I would be inclined to re-title the movies <I>The Passion of the Superman</I> and <I>Superchrist</I> - <I>cinema gloriae</I>.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-64247631224443763232007-06-04T12:30:00.000-04:002007-06-04T12:30:00.000-04:00Anne Mullany from sex, lies, and videotapeThis pos...Anne Mullany from <I>sex, lies, and videotape</I><BR/><BR/>This post reminds me of the Christlike hippie character in Percy's <I>Lancelot</I>. <BR/><BR/>FredFredhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01262662173303042998noreply@blogger.com