tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post6472551760619942079..comments2024-03-25T13:40:30.747-04:00Comments on Faith and Theology: Pro Deo et Patria? On Remembrance DayBen Myershttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03800127501735910966noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-29953177927353889072010-05-05T05:58:29.096-04:002010-05-05T05:58:29.096-04:00I think that there are fundamental, structural dif...I think that there are fundamental, structural differences between war and police action - and there are also, btw, distinctions to be made between all forms of organised violence and personal self-defence (on both of which issues the views of war-and-peace pacifists are divided). May this monkey refer you to the organ grinder himself? See, e.g., Yoder's <i>The Politics of Jesus</i> (pp. 204f.) on the former, and his <i>What Would You Do?</i> on the latter.kim fabriciusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-83619253159384965492010-05-05T03:40:13.005-04:002010-05-05T03:40:13.005-04:00Hi Kim,
Thanks for the sermon and the reply. I re...Hi Kim,<br /><br />Thanks for the sermon and the reply. I really liked your RD reflection, though obviously with some caveats.<br /><br />It seems to me that you are still avoiding the crucial point in relation to Bonhoeffer and war in general. The argument about the plot failing is ultimately moot as it was military action that was the instrument which stopped Hitler. No-one can deny this. In that sense, the plot to kill him was simply the logical extension (or microcosm) of what was already succeeding in changing things. I am aware of Bonhoeffer's reflection on his part in the plot, but you must surely acknowledge that something convinced him that there would be some (or even a great deal) of good to be gained by engaging, whatever the conflicts in his own mind. Why would he have otherwise?<br /><br />I say again, imagine the consequences for the world if Hitler had never been confronted. How do you reflect on this? <br /><br />If I understand your argument correctly, we should not employ police forces who must use violence to protect others under attack.<br /><br />What are your thoughts?<br /><br />Mike EAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-66620821382061789122010-05-05T02:44:41.143-04:002010-05-05T02:44:41.143-04:00What do we do when we are confronted with tyrants ...<i>What do we do when we are confronted with tyrants who will stop at nothing until their malicious agendas are fulfilled? What is your answer to this?</i><br /><br />Justin will answer for himself. I would simply point out that the question would include Caesar Augustus - and my answer would refer to Jesus of Nazareth.<br /><br />Btw, on the appeal to Bonhoeffer, I would make two points. First, as is well known, Bonhoeffer joined the plot to kill Hitler acknowledging the <i>sinfulness</i> of his action. Second, taking up Justin's point about how we stop tyrants, it is crucial to remember that the plot against Hitler <i>failed</i>; indeed, if anything, it exacerbated Hitler's murderous frenzy. People who use Bonhoeffer to justify violent action as a last resort usually forget this uncomfortable fact.<br /><br />When fires are raging and people are desperate to do <i>something</i> to put it out. Still, that can of petrol is probably not a good option.kim fabriciusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-29494393909556769832010-05-04T23:57:12.218-04:002010-05-04T23:57:12.218-04:00Justin,
Apart from it being in incredibly poor ta...Justin,<br /><br />Apart from it being in incredibly poor taste to equate any or all of the three political leaders you mention with Hitler (not to mention historically absurd), what are we supposed to say about Bonhoeffer's engagement in the plot? I'm not making an argument that Bonhoeffer was not a powerful peace/pacifist advocate, he certainly was. But his actions reveal the dilemma of the pacifist position. What do we do when we are confronted with tyrants who will stop at nothing until their malicious agendas are fulfilled? What is your answer to this?<br /><br />Mike EAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-5400190793972089432010-05-04T21:02:47.589-04:002010-05-04T21:02:47.589-04:00"And incidentally, Bonhoeffer took part in th..."And incidentally, Bonhoeffer took part in the plot to kill Hitler."<br /><br />Along with Gandhi's use of the term "passive resistance" (which he instantly regretted and spent the rest of his life disclaiming), possibly the most mis-used artefact in modern debates on nonviolence.<br /><br />The only thing we should take from this action by Bonhoeffer is that when our own political leaders wage wars against defenceless people, we might have to consider how we will stop them too, or to use Bonhoeffer's phrase how we will "put a spoke in the wheel of war". <br /><br />Are you proposing we try to assassinate the next George W Bush, Tony Blair or John Howard? <br /><br />P.S. Great sermon Kim. <br />P.P.S. For a similar reflection from a young Oz Christian activist, see Jarrod McKenna's blog post on ANZAC Day, including another important Bonhoeffer quote "Christianity stands or falls with its revolutionary protest against violence".<br />http://blog.sojo.net/2010/04/21/fight-or-die-how-to-loose-friends-and-irritate-people/Justinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03619251268419927470noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-27881628145614211722010-05-04T02:40:38.801-04:002010-05-04T02:40:38.801-04:00Okay, let me offer a critique, I will make it in p...Okay, let me offer a critique, I will make it in point form. Let me first say that I find this a more nuanced reflection than Ben's ANZAC piece, and your position/points are well made, certainly elegant...<br /><br />But...<br /><br />- Christians down the ages have wrestled with the question of war & faith and sincere and thoughtful believers have come out either side,<br />so we need to be careful about proclaiming this as a cut and dried issue.<br /><br />- Just War has as part of its make up a commitment to peacemaking initiatives, in fact, war is always and only ever 'the last resort', thus Just War and pacifism are theological cousins, not complete strangers as they are so often purported to be. The fact that the analysis of 'last resort' in any given situation is bathed in subjectivity, does not render the principle any less compelling and important within Just War theory.<br /><br />- Theologically and ethically, we have to take seriously the plight of those who cannot defend themselves and are under attack. How many more people would have died at the hands of Hitler and his henchman if no-one had intervened? What would the world look like today? How many more lives could have been saved if intervention had come earlier in the 1930s when Germany was still relatively weak?<br /><br />- There's something ignominious about pious pronouncements from any of us who enjoy the freedom that (at least some) wars have helped create. We need to acknowledge this situation up front and deal with its complexity if we are going to preach pacifism.<br /><br />- In a pacifist world view, we must also ask whether it is also then appropriate to have Police Forces which employ violent tactics to deal with difficult situations.<br /><br />- We must be more thoughtful regarding distinctions between wars which are (at least in the first place) defensive responses to unprovoked agression, and those which appear to have more politically motivated ends. I agree that the church should be radically problematising all war, but this should not preclude harder theological/ethical analysis regarding the different natures of particular conflicts. <br /><br />So there we are to get us started. No knock down arguments by any means, but realities we must thoughtfully engage with as Christians.<br /><br />And incidentally, Bonhoeffer took part in the plot to kill Hitler.<br /><br />Mike EAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-19660295227335104442010-05-03T20:38:25.528-04:002010-05-03T20:38:25.528-04:00Thank you Kim, an elegant and persuasive sermon.
...Thank you Kim, an elegant and persuasive sermon. <br /><br />It is interesting that this sermon has not generated the same volume of responses as Ben's first piece. You seem to have silenced the critics. :)Highanddryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00536030299423398163noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-48033977606583988762010-05-03T16:58:25.349-04:002010-05-03T16:58:25.349-04:00Yes, Paul. Damn, even though Martyrs Corner hadn&...Yes, Paul. Damn, even though Martyrs Corner hadn't been constructed when I visited WA, I wish I'd thought of that for the sermon! I'll stick it in if I ever preach it "again" (even the same sermon is never the same again).kim fabriciusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-12469871292445504832010-05-03T15:13:56.792-04:002010-05-03T15:13:56.792-04:00Very powerful, Kim. Thanks for sharing.
It's ...Very powerful, Kim. Thanks for sharing.<br /><br />It's all the more ironic that Martin Luther King, Oscar Romero and Dietrich Bonhoeffer are all featured in the gallery of martyrs at Westminister Abbey. All ardent Christian pacifists.Paulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04688896108649312158noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-19324880454321624962010-05-03T10:35:47.677-04:002010-05-03T10:35:47.677-04:00Nice!
LOL until I figured out it was a quoted ser...Nice!<br /><br />LOL until I figured out it was a quoted sermon... I was totally baffled about when you may have been a "Free Churchman", Ben!Karl Handhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12300226652913169193noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-38294558050899569532010-05-02T01:30:43.920-04:002010-05-02T01:30:43.920-04:00Your last paragraph goes some way towards answerin...Your last paragraph goes some way towards answering questions I have had about pacifism. My concerns have all been about practical matters. Here are two:<br /><br />1) There is an awful hypocrisy in telling Christians to avoid military careers, without being able to offer a practicable plan for running a democracy without arms.<br /><br />2) A consistent pacifism would seem to demand not only avoiding careers that involve the use of force, but also a rejection of political structures and offices that depend on the threat of force. <br /><br />Perhaps I begin to glimpse, however, how one could be a pacifist even with such concerns.Jonathan Keithnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-67465461512873709552010-05-01T17:46:58.870-04:002010-05-01T17:46:58.870-04:00A bow (and a hug) from Minnesota (USA colony), dea...A bow (and a hug) from Minnesota (USA colony), dear Kim. Profound and very thoughtful.roger flyernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-19555741934733472982010-04-30T23:11:37.675-04:002010-04-30T23:11:37.675-04:00On Anzac Day, our minister used psalm 46 as the ba...On Anzac Day, our minister used psalm 46 as the basis of his sermon "He makes wars cease to the ends of the earth". My hope is in this belief. <br />Maybe on the margins, and not pandering to the establishment,is the best place for the church to be in this time when so many countries are in conflict and war. By "radically problematising war" we can once again truly follow the way of Jesus.Pamelahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05815263209123614682noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-39741748950472587862010-04-30T20:36:55.930-04:002010-04-30T20:36:55.930-04:00Timely, clear and persuasive Kim. I recently read ...Timely, clear and persuasive Kim. I recently read a piece by Mat Tan (“Eucharistic worship and peace making”, in CASE, no. 22, 2010, pp 24 -27, CASE is the quarterly magazine of the Centre for Apologetics and Religious Education, New College, UNSW) wherein Mat points out that the way space and time itself is envisioned shapes how we see power and control. That is, the Eucharist is a powerful political alternative to the nation and the empire. Eucharistic space and time transcends the immediate temporal and special categories which nations and empires kill and die for. It occurred to me reading Mat’s piece that if only Augustine had thought the Eucharist through a bit further in these terms, then he may well have not gone down the just war pathway.Paul Tysonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00469200454286176877noreply@blogger.com