tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post512726489054887485..comments2024-03-25T13:40:30.747-04:00Comments on Faith and Theology: On theology and friendshipBen Myershttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03800127501735910966noreply@blogger.comBlogger48125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-13151649288280375912010-09-14T05:31:04.520-04:002010-09-14T05:31:04.520-04:00@ Chris
Unfortunately, so often in my experience ...@ Chris<br /><br />Unfortunately, so often in my experience theologians spend more time presenting simple things in increasing complexity. It's why there are so few great theologians.Highanddryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00536030299423398163noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-72930417317969361192010-09-13T20:24:30.750-04:002010-09-13T20:24:30.750-04:00...as my Professor of English said (a Fellow of St......as my Professor of English said (a Fellow of St.John's College Cambridge)"A sign of real intelligence is the ability to say and present complex things simply"...hmmmdavehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14140469123129744842noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-90043363389513604962010-09-13T20:09:03.618-04:002010-09-13T20:09:03.618-04:00The problem I have with this artuicle/comment by B...The problem I have with this artuicle/comment by Ben is the "elitism" it tries to avoid. All Christians are theologians...people who observe and study the nature and work of God in their daily lives...some of us are narrative theologians; some of us are systematic, academic theologians; some of us are affective, artistic, poetic theologians;some of us are natural, non-formally educated theologians.Some of us have "head knowledge" and some of us have "heart knowledge." The danger of giving primacy to the voice of academic, systematic theologians is that it is only one way of experiencing/describing/talking about God (sadly, often incomprehensibly.)The many voices of the many types of theologians in the Church is infact the proper nature of the Church, and the 'symphony'is an excellent one for describing this diverse and rich community of voices.davehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14140469123129744842noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-16037818731477584042010-08-29T15:21:58.905-04:002010-08-29T15:21:58.905-04:00Nice post but surely we are all theologians as we ...Nice post but surely we are all theologians as we seek the way of salvation and as Dr Luther said:'I did not learn my theology all at once,I had to follow where my temptations led me. It is not by reading or writing or speculating that one becomes a theologian. It is rather living, dying and being damned that makes one a theologian.'<br />I agree with himAndrew Kennyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02714318748847734699noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-86774040128284509742010-08-29T01:26:39.412-04:002010-08-29T01:26:39.412-04:00Ah, what a question. Perhaps we must repent of our...Ah, what a question. Perhaps we must repent of our knowledge first?Tina Beattiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04324786100032395008noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-27436258971295295432010-08-27T05:49:33.868-04:002010-08-27T05:49:33.868-04:00Hi Tina — nice to see you around these parts. Than...Hi Tina — nice to see you around these parts. Thanks for your delightful comment: I love the image of Penelope; and I wish I'd known that Thomas passage when I was writing the post!<br /><br />Anyway, since I've been writing all day on T. S. Eliot, I can't resist one more (very) melancholy quote: "After such knowledge, what forgiveness?"Ben Myershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03800127501735910966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-44227530621609898112010-08-27T04:32:24.984-04:002010-08-27T04:32:24.984-04:00Thank you for this thoughtful post - I much apprec...Thank you for this thoughtful post - I much appreciate it. Thomas Aquinas associates knowledge with the beatitude of mourning (ST 1.2.69.3), and he quotes Ecclesiastes 1:18: 'For with much wisdom comes much sorrow; the more knowledge, the more grief.' <br /><br />But I also love the quote from Barth, about 'a smile that can never be laughter'. I don't think we theologians should take ourselves too seriously - at best, we can only ever be holy fools, and at worst I'm afraid we tend to be tedious prats. Maybe we should laugh at ourselves at least once a day.<br /><br />As for sleepless nights, I always think of doing theology as being like Penelope stitching shrouds by day and unpicking them by night. <br /><br />And I think Eve should definitely be the patron saint of theologians.Tina Beattiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04324786100032395008noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-84227066631114796442010-08-25T10:18:44.366-04:002010-08-25T10:18:44.366-04:00I think that you may be throwing out the baby with...I think that you may be throwing out the baby with the bathwater here. I myself have not been to seminary, nor have I taken a single theology class - but I do believe that there is merit in someone dedicating themselves to the study of God's Word in order to know for certain what it says. It reminds me of the Bereans that Paul spoke about:<br /><br />Acts 17:11<br />Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.<br /><br />Our dedication to God and to the Way is two-fold: it should be manifest both in our eagerness to serve others and in our hunger for God's Word. Christ Himself said that "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God." I think that the landscape of Christianity would be drastically different if everyone would strive to understand the bible as though it were our job (which, for a Theologian, it is). We should all be sitting down as often as possible to read our bible cover-to-cover, making our understanding complete as we contemplate every verse, for all scripture is inspired by God and is profitable for doctrine.<br /><br />Of course not every theologian is led by God's spirit, nor is everyone who calls themselves Christian, for Jesus said that no one could come to Him unless the Father draws them. I do not believe that everyone who reads and studies the bible gets what God intended out of it, but I do believe that they at least build character until the time that God will call all men.<br /><br />As I myself learn and study the bible, I post bible studies to my blogs:<br />http://spiritual-snacks.blogspot.com (updated frequently with short studies)<br />http://thevoiceofonecryingoutinthewilderness.blogspot.com (updated less frequently with longer studies)Steven Britthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16809763282416222188noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-45621185066076401592010-08-24T22:51:06.600-04:002010-08-24T22:51:06.600-04:00re "Is a theologian’s wounding more profound ...re "Is a theologian’s wounding more profound or categorically different than what others experience? The sick? The poor? "<br /><br />Many, many theologians have been sick and poor. Possibly more than not, but there's no way to know for sure.<br /><br />More famous ones include Jesus (murdered as well), St. Francis, Thomas Aquinas, (mendicant), St. John of the Cross (also incarcerated by his fellow "Christians.) Then there's Buddha, perhaps Gandhi could be included.<br /><br />But forget the famous and published. Consider the countless missionaries, teachers, mystics, gurus, clergy of the eons who have, for the love of theology and the Divine partaken of "God alone."<br /><br />Theology is nothing if not the study of God's appearance and interaction with the lost, the forsaken, the poor, the sick. Hence the grace is all the more appreciated.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-19424393255509826202010-08-24T17:02:18.090-04:002010-08-24T17:02:18.090-04:00Ben your writing is really wonderful; engaging and...Ben your writing is really wonderful; engaging and generous. I can't quite get with the thesis on this one, though. Is theologian a new category of person? If so, we owe Aristotle for the discipline. We might soften it by claiming we mean only "god-talk", but in the context of this blog, “theologian” is still painted with western academic culture; a specialist in theology, and I can't help but think this suggests an ontology of God different than the voice speaking from the burning bush or evidenced by people sharing testimonies in church. Theologian God-talk proceeds in a specialized way, one which requires a certain amount of privilege to enter. What kind of God is in view, the loss of whom would generate Brill's back catalog? Perhaps the wounding is as much a result of the nature of academic reflection. <br /><br />Is a theologian’s wounding more profound or categorically different than what others experience? The sick? The poor? Besides, it has always troubled me to learn of the profound dysfunction and evil many notable theologians are guilty of: I like your description of the "drivenness" of it. Perhaps theology is as much a product of an internal dysfunction as is the loneliness. My pet theory is that it’s a denial of death.<br /><br />Just thinking aloud, though. I tend to imagine theologians as more Promethean, and I've probably underestimated how generous your definition really is, one that includes Job and wonders, “what then should we do?” Thanks for this.Erinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13301222412563398458noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-3754743665256553532010-08-24T05:51:32.491-04:002010-08-24T05:51:32.491-04:00Excellent post and very much appreciated.Excellent post and very much appreciated.Randyhttp://fromdamascustoemmaus.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-32307021709871400062010-08-24T00:44:05.920-04:002010-08-24T00:44:05.920-04:00"I turned around and there he was-gone."..."I turned around and there he was-gone." roger, that is apophaticism at its best. there he was, gone. merton's "theology of creativity" is something i've been reading that reminds me of your comment (both of which i love).<br /><br />ben, thanks so much for this post, sincerely. there is a small group of us here in Vancouver looking to do something, anything, nothing, something. i read your post at a breakfast get together and the truth in it hushed the room.<br /><br />I also love Kim's quoting of Barth - the no enfolded in God's yes. realism enfolded in greater realism.joel masonhttp://www.herbofgrace.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-80132547038501875292010-08-23T20:56:34.534-04:002010-08-23T20:56:34.534-04:00Dear Roger. I wonder …
Has God (A) gone, or was G...Dear Roger. I wonder …<br /><br />Has God (A) gone, or was God (B) not there in the first place, or is God (C) there and has always been there but we have never known God, and God will not be an object of our mastery? Or maybe (D) we did indeed used to know God, and now we really do not? I think (C) is a big part of it, but whilst I rule out (B) I do think (A) and (D) are also in the mix. But as modern Western people, I do think a big part of our problem is how we understand knowledge, power and community. But the experience of “missing God” and being lost in the dark woods, yes, this is the experience of many serious Christians I know, and my own experience. It is, I think, by no means a good experience – the sense of abandonment, disorientation, isolation, the failure of the Lebensform of church life on which our own identity as believers and followers of Jesus depends – these are I think nothing we can make a virtue out of. Lord have mercy on us! Lord bring us through this dark, lonely, barren, lost place not into some Enlightenment certain finished human project of our own religious making, but into the living way that is the Life of Christ lived out in the fellowship of believers and for the redemption of the world.Paul Tysonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00469200454286176877noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-56583785081812338082010-08-23T20:41:56.146-04:002010-08-23T20:41:56.146-04:00I miss the God of my innocence.I miss the God of my innocence.Studentnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-34016907895393435082010-08-23T16:48:59.118-04:002010-08-23T16:48:59.118-04:00I have missed the God I used to know. I miss him s...I have missed the God I used to know. I miss him so much as I am now huddling in these dark woods after walking with him for more than 30 years. I turned around and there he was--gone. <br /><br />I have missed Him so much, and I have become a much deeper theology student and hide and seeker of God since I got lost.roger flyernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-29032854091200796932010-08-23T13:47:00.999-04:002010-08-23T13:47:00.999-04:00Question: might anyone here know whether or not Ba...Question: might anyone here know whether or not Barth read the Austrian journal Der Brenner? Or, if he read any of their frequent contributors such as Theodore Haecker and Ferdinand Ebner (both played a prominent role in the first wave of SK's reception into Weimar culture)?Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07346353866201262610noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-20823995092933259732010-08-23T10:56:01.060-04:002010-08-23T10:56:01.060-04:00such a moving post, thank you.such a moving post, thank you.The Convergence of Theologyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18214590696560409979noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-49146931965634471372010-08-23T07:28:55.423-04:002010-08-23T07:28:55.423-04:00"one of the proper goals of theology is not s..."one of the proper goals of theology is not so much spiritual catharsis or intellectual mastery – clearing up every difficulty so that one can sleep at night – as the cultivation of theological friendships"... <br /><br />currently experiencing the truth in this... although still not sleeping very well :o)Tennikatenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-77103109903029762092010-08-22T11:49:30.076-04:002010-08-22T11:49:30.076-04:00Ya I know Ben was invoking Barth and not Altizer. ...Ya I know Ben was invoking Barth and not Altizer. Also I mostly like the Altizer quote because of how silly Cobb and process theologians alike for thinking theology is a happy enterprise.<br /><br />Anyway, sorry for the distraction. I'd like to hear someone respond to my question and Dan's question concerning this splitting of the theologian from the nontheologian and the ethical implications.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-77600442496300583762010-08-22T04:42:19.829-04:002010-08-22T04:42:19.829-04:00I hear Karl Barth, the author of "Kierkegaard...I hear Karl Barth, the author of "Kierkegaard and the Theologians", the tombstone removed, turning and arising from his grave.<br /><br />Barth writes of those theologians "who have worked themselves deeper and deeper into Kierkegaard" - and so a fortiori into Nietzsche - "so much so that they could not work themselves out again... They see themselves and the others, the Church and the world, surrounded by nothing but threatening negations. To them their vocation is a continuous temptation, their genuine authentic Christianity one continuous attack on all other 'Christianities'.... Their sad pleasure or pleasurable sadness ... is a seriousness that never allows them to be really serious, a smile that can never be laughter."<br /><br />And yet there are other kinds of theologians who have also been to the school of Kierkegaard - and a fortiori Nietzsche - who "too could not put behind them the stimulus received from him, ... and could not return to the fleshpots of a bourgeois Christianism ..., could never again ignore or suppress the 'no' uttered in the Gospel to the world and the Church. But - and this led them beyond Kierkegaard" - and a fortiori Nietzsche - "they could now hear it and bear witness to it as the 'no' enfolded in God's 'yes'; they could bear witness to it as the fire of his love, which aims ... at the entire godless world and seeks to be proclaimed as such by the Church."<br /><br />I think Ben's take on the theologian is more Barthian than Altizerian, more living the life of God than his death.kim fabriciusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-49895981454305365692010-08-22T03:14:42.717-04:002010-08-22T03:14:42.717-04:00Also I found a quote from everyone's favorite ...Also I found a quote from everyone's favorite theologian, Altizer, that seemed rather appropriate.<br /><br />"Here, we can see why even modern Thomists such as Karl Rahner can finally affirm the absolute unknowability of God, for the God who we can actually know is too terrible to contemplate, so that in this perspective there is no more dangerous or more pathological vocation than theology, a discipline that truly is a sickness unto death. Why then choose theology? Why accept such a loathsome and pathological calling? Can one here be at most simply a scapegoat? Would it not be far wiser simply to end such a calling? Our contemporary world has very nearly succeeded in ending every genuine theological calling, perhaps it knows all too well that theology is not truly a vocation for the healthy-minded, and I was shocked by John Cobb’s wonder that I did not realize that all process theologians are once-born or healthy-minded. No, I can only think of theology as a vocation for the sick soul, I simply cannot imagine theological depth apart from a true opening to the deepest pathology" (Living the death of God, 105-6).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-78431180414924298132010-08-22T03:11:10.595-04:002010-08-22T03:11:10.595-04:00Dan,
I think that's a helpful way of framing ...Dan,<br /><br />I think that's a helpful way of framing it. <br /><br />In response to the question I posed earlier "Why are theologians so prone to romanticize the common religious believer?" I would offer this response. I think theologians are forced to idealize the common religious believer because there seems to be some sort of vocational guilt. Theologians feel as if they've somehow escaped the real world by hiding in their ivory towers. In turn this leads them to abase themselves and pretend that somehow they are the true ones who don't believe or have faith. Perhaps the self-abasement is a way to dissolve the boundaries between theologian/nontheologian. I'm sure many theologians do turn to theological study because they struggle with doubt and insecurity. But is this doubt qualitatively different from the doubt every religious believer experiences? <br /><br />That's why I've always respected those theologians who dedicate their lives debating issues that are so esoteric that they can't even begin to pretend that the ramifications of these concepts will somehow impact the church.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-24138121770033345022010-08-21T12:55:34.657-04:002010-08-21T12:55:34.657-04:00I'd like to echo the sentiment of jridenour...I'd like to echo the sentiment of jridenour's comment. I think there is a question of ethics here, of intellectual virtue, which perhaps the "theologian" (as here described) takes seriously in a way that others do not. This is not to deny that there may be "authentic" non-theologian believers, but simply to ask why the issue is framed over against the norm of those who "get it" apart from certain questioning (which foregrounds a privation in the theologian).dbarberhttp://itself.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-14941524539077626742010-08-21T08:57:58.660-04:002010-08-21T08:57:58.660-04:00your best post ever ben.your best post ever ben.Jimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16698562143972216357noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-39647276837282662242010-08-20T20:10:10.875-04:002010-08-20T20:10:10.875-04:00Echoing what everyone is already saying: a beautif...Echoing what everyone is already saying: a beautiful, warming post. The comments only add to the beauty. Kim mentions one of my favorite - no, my very favorite - bit of Barth's oeuvre. And Kim's concluding comment is exactly on point. <br /><br />Perhaps it would be as true to say that (at least) some theologians are captured by the <i>beauty</i> of God, and find themselves <i>drawn </i>, rather than driven, to God? Perhaps it is something of both for all or at least most of us? <br /><br />Tony and Jamie are right to recall Hauerwas, I think. Perhaps what you say here applies especially to him, and perhaps less so to, say, theologians of other times and places? <br /><br />In any case, you give us sound advice and much to think about. Thank you for this.Chris E Greenhttp://www.cewgreen.comnoreply@blogger.com