tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post5095257852729125018..comments2024-03-25T13:40:30.747-04:00Comments on Faith and Theology: Theology with Tom WaitsBen Myershttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03800127501735910966noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-17574014877658683822007-04-19T08:31:00.000-04:002007-04-19T08:31:00.000-04:00but...why not universalism?but...why not universalism?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-50820217735544277462007-04-18T20:16:00.000-04:002007-04-18T20:16:00.000-04:00Hehe - that is a great line. And voice on that so...Hehe - that is a great line. And voice on that song is such a kick, too.a. stewardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11088882067112605988noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-88016163364064385982007-04-18T20:05:00.000-04:002007-04-18T20:05:00.000-04:00Thanks for mentioning Bone Machine, Adam. I love "...Thanks for mentioning <I>Bone Machine</I>, Adam. I love "Jesus Gonna Be Here" -- especially those delightful lines:<BR/><BR/>Well I've been faithful<BR/>And I've been so good<BR/>Except for drinking<BR/>But He knew that I would...Ben Myershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03800127501735910966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-54537769579280006812007-04-18T19:49:00.000-04:002007-04-18T19:49:00.000-04:00I like your suggestions, a. chapin. They seem ver...I like your suggestions, a. chapin. They seem very human. I think the desire in me to closely define who's in and out can be a position predicated on distrust: precise definition is needed because I cannot trust the judge is entirely beneficent. I find my desire for universalism is often predicated on despair: I am not entirely sure the affairs of this world matter much to God. The insistence of God's freedom forces me to trust and hope in Jesus alone.<BR/><BR/>Hope that's not too overwrought: the Waits' lyric both moved me and condemned most of the worship songs I've sung recently..Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-26014314635824250102007-04-18T19:47:00.000-04:002007-04-18T19:47:00.000-04:00Nice post, Ben. Tom Waits is so great. The pirat...Nice post, Ben. Tom Waits is so great. The pirate music sort of bothers me, but his album Bone Machine is one of my favorites, period. Check out the songs "Black Wings" and "Jesus Gonna Be Here" - they're both pretty great songs, and good examples of his theological allusion.<BR/>Kim, I think you're right on in drawing a connection between O'Connor and Waits. I just posted a <A HREF="http://lorettasbasement.blogspot.com/2007/04/ben-myers-has-just-posted-interesting.html" REL="nofollow">little reflection</A> of my own on grace in O'Connor's stories. Along with many others, I'd throw P.T. Anderson in there as one who makes it a point to show the abundance of grace as sin increases.a. stewardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11088882067112605988noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-26221831395943708662007-04-18T18:11:00.000-04:002007-04-18T18:11:00.000-04:00Maybe the attraction of Universalism is very perso...Maybe the attraction of Universalism is very personal. Some experience the reality of their own sins so deeply that they can’t think of anyone who has sinned more than they have. Everyone else can be excused – the arch-villains like Hitler with the lunacy defense. But in the personal case, many may not find any defense believable (nor should they); one may sense a depth of sin that is not even yet conscious…..such that if redemption is an eventual healing of all, then even they are included. <BR/><BR/>Maybe the attraction is related to the sense of not having enough time to repent. The desert father Sisoes upon his death bed felt he hadn’t yet begun to repent…..and if repentance and salvation are at all connected….it may feel better, be a better expression of faith, that salvation is ultimately about what God does….and who would God leave out of His own work?<BR/><BR/>Great song and post. Thanks.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-13003093477685980072007-04-18T11:17:00.000-04:002007-04-18T11:17:00.000-04:00This box set "Orphans, Brawlers, Bastards" has ser...This box set "Orphans, Brawlers, Bastards" has served as my intro to Tom Waits. I can't decide whether Tom's or Cash's version is better because each is full of special character in its own way. Waits' version is sung in a Black preaching style and Cash of course is much more country. But the "Altar Call" invitation is as strong in each! Thanks for this discussion. For those interested, I've set up a theo-musicology blog over at http://hardcountry.wordpress.com with Religion professor David Fillingim of Shorter college.<BR/>I recently did a lengthy intro to Johnny Cash.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-88489962036139017272007-04-18T10:26:00.000-04:002007-04-18T10:26:00.000-04:00Nothing to do with Tom Waits, but I have some brea...Nothing to do with Tom Waits, but I have some breaking news that <I>Faith & Theology</I> readers will want to hear. In the comments to this <A HREF="http://exiledpreacher.blogspot.com/2007/04/blogging-in-name-of-lord-special-david.html" REL="nofollow">post</A>, a Welsh reader claims to have met Kim Fabricius. This kind of blows a hole in the Ben = Kim hypothesis. I'm sorry if that leaves readers with a sense of shock and disbelief, but facts are facts.Guy Davieshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09184743462264437085noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-1939286780948931422007-04-18T10:14:00.000-04:002007-04-18T10:14:00.000-04:00Bravo! I'm sending a copy of your post to my 13 y...Bravo! I'm sending a copy of your post to my 13 year old son, who's as much a fan of Waits as I am.The maidenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01158682036840381823noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-4833883580399289422007-04-18T05:04:00.000-04:002007-04-18T05:04:00.000-04:00"the arresting menace of God's almighty goodness" ..."the arresting menace of God's almighty goodness" -- beautifully expressed, Kim!<BR/><BR/>And thanks for your query, Andrew. I think we can "always" say this to the individual because we don't address the individual on the basis of any general theological system, but on the basis of the <I>gospel</I>. And the gospel simply <I>is</I> the announcement (to a specific person in a specific situation) that "God has said Yes to you once and for all in the death and resurrection of Jesus." <BR/><BR/>In other words, I think we can always be confident that <I>this particular person</I> is a recipient of God's reconciling grace -- even though we can't extrapolate from the specificity of this situation to any general theory of universalism.<BR/><BR/>Some Lutheran theologians have expressed this point in relation to the doctrine of election. If someone asks me, "How do I know I am among the elect?", I can answer: "I know God has elected you because I'm now announcing God's promise to you!"Ben Myershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03800127501735910966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-81532520095047373222007-04-18T04:54:00.000-04:002007-04-18T04:54:00.000-04:00A "startlingly uncompromising depiction" of the gr...A "startlingly uncompromising depiction" of the grotesqueness of grace is just what the song is. Waits' literary world reminds me of that of Flannery O'Connor (who greatly admired Barth and read Aquinas every night before going to bed). Of one of her characters, Mr. Head in "The Artificial Nigger", O'Connor narrates: "He saw that no sin was too monstrous for him to claim as his own, and since God loved in proportion as He forgave, he felt ready at that instant to enter Paradise."<BR/><BR/>Waits in his lyrics and O'Connor in her fiction deal with the problem of evil by confronting us with the arresting menace of God's almighty goodness.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-21100023149124696772007-04-18T03:23:00.000-04:002007-04-18T03:23:00.000-04:00Great song. I've been a Waits fan since seeing (an...Great song. I've been a Waits fan since seeing (and hearing the soundtrack of) <I>Down by Law</I>. I'll have to look out for the album.byron smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17938334606675769903noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-31715131391763947812007-04-18T03:02:00.000-04:002007-04-18T03:02:00.000-04:00Thanks Ben. A genuine question: how can we, encoun...Thanks Ben. <BR/><BR/>A genuine question: how can we, encountering specific individuals, be "<I>always</I> able to say... I know that your name will be on that list..." if we are not committed to a thoroughgoing universalism?AndrewEhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03935631014151132458noreply@blogger.com