tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post418328695937209144..comments2024-03-25T13:40:30.747-04:00Comments on Faith and Theology: A dialogue with George HerbertBen Myershttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03800127501735910966noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-2235370772913089642008-05-31T01:31:00.000-04:002008-05-31T01:31:00.000-04:00Oh, thanks for that suggestion, Mrs Jaggins (i.e. ...Oh, thanks for that suggestion, Mrs Jaggins (i.e. mum!).Ben Myershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03800127501735910966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-27409772793194121562008-05-31T01:15:00.000-04:002008-05-31T01:15:00.000-04:00Regarding the wonderful final line of Herbert's "D...Regarding the wonderful final line of Herbert's "Dialogue", it's also possible that it reflects both man and God's response to the matter. This kind of layered richness would be typical of Herbert.Mrs Jagginshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00231452833327931437noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-61046675955402675172008-05-30T03:23:00.000-04:002008-05-30T03:23:00.000-04:00Thanks, Ben, I love wide-open fields! Yours in Ch...Thanks, Ben, I love wide-open fields! Yours in Christ - JOHN HARTLEY.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-89208232280738476472008-05-29T09:18:00.000-04:002008-05-29T09:18:00.000-04:00Actually, no need to consult my mother in this cas...Actually, no need to consult my mother in this case: Mario Di Cesare's edition, <I>George Herbert, The Temple: A Diplomatic Edition of the Bodleian Manuscript</I> (1995), explains that the use of italics to distinguish the two speakers was introduced by Herbert's first editor, Thomas Buck, who printed the first (posthumous) edition of <I>The Temple</I> in 1633. In contrast, Di Cesare thinks (and, for what it's worth, my mum's dissertation agrees!) that the Little Gidding manuscript (transcribed by Tanner in 1633) better reflects Herbert's own intentions — and this manuscript doesn't visibly distinguish between the two speakers in "Dialogue".<BR/><BR/>Di Cesare remarks that Thomas Buck's editorial intervention in "Dialogue" has been followed by most editions: "His definition of the speeches was probably accurate, but the definition itself was neither necessary nor productive." (On the other hand, Kim, I think the use of the markers "Man/God" is a relatively recent editorial barbarism.)<BR/><BR/>So there you go, John: this leaves the field wide open for arguing that the final line <I>might</I> in fact be God speaking... (Personally, though, I think Herbert's way of addressing God — and his depiction of God's speech — is so distinctive that it's virtually impossible to confuse the poet's "own voice" with God's.)Ben Myershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03800127501735910966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-17023162121620628882008-05-29T07:34:00.000-04:002008-05-29T07:34:00.000-04:00In my edition, that the last line is spoken by "Ma...In my edition, that the last line is spoken by "Man" (in distinction from "Saviour") is explicitly in the text. However whether that is from the original, or an editorial gloss, I do not know.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-78523848882307377922008-05-29T06:09:00.000-04:002008-05-29T06:09:00.000-04:00Hi John: that's an interesting question. I'm quite...Hi John: that's an interesting question. I'm quite sure it is Herbert's voice coming through in that last line — it's just so characteristic of the way he addresses God throughout <I>The Temple</I>. But you're right, you could certainly imagine the last line as God interrupting himself (so to speak).<BR/><BR/>The printed editions use italics to separate God's speech from Herbert's — and I have no idea about the manuscripts, but it's a very interesting question. (I should ask my mum: she did a PhD thesis about Herbert's manuscripts.)Ben Myershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03800127501735910966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-86478776917310501332008-05-29T06:02:00.000-04:002008-05-29T06:02:00.000-04:00Ben, I'm surprised that you write "Herbert interru...Ben, I'm surprised that you write "Herbert interrupts God in the final line" - because it is possible to interpret the line as if spoken by God: his own heart being broken by the lack of self-esteem of one of his creatures.<BR/><BR/>I don't know the poem at all, but would it be possible for you to say where the division by typescript into the two voices originates? Is it present in Herbert's original? Or is it something which a later editor has superimposed in order to make the meaning clearer?<BR/><BR/>I agree this is a great piece of both poetry and theology.<BR/><BR/>Many thanks in advance for your clarification. Yours in Christ - JOHN HARTLEY.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-11514654863253170042008-05-29T01:03:00.000-04:002008-05-29T01:03:00.000-04:00Hi Roger: yes, many thanks for the delightful gift...Hi Roger: yes, many thanks for the delightful <A HREF="http://rogerflyer.com/blog/" REL="nofollow">gifts</A>! You've been getting a lot of airtime in my house, and my kids <I>adore</I> your children's CD. Thanks!Ben Myershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03800127501735910966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-52408843283862337732008-05-28T14:41:00.000-04:002008-05-28T14:41:00.000-04:00Love 2 is my favorite of his poems and in a word i...Love 2 is my favorite of his poems and in a word is my story.<BR/><BR/>Ben-did you get my package from USA?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-20634473688286694972008-05-28T11:10:00.000-04:002008-05-28T11:10:00.000-04:00Amazing poem and great post.Michael MettsAmazing poem and great post.<BR/><BR/>Michael MettsAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-28321672574814996352008-05-28T10:17:00.000-04:002008-05-28T10:17:00.000-04:00The Glance reminds me of the scene in Ben Hur wher...The Glance reminds me of the scene in Ben Hur where the captive has his first encounter with the living God and the scales of hatred and revenge slowly start to fall from his eyes.<BR/>A brief encounter, a brief glance. That is all God needs.<BR/><BR/>Thanks for a beautiful and inspiring post.<BR/><BR/> - Steve M.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-20137952966535446052008-05-28T07:04:00.000-04:002008-05-28T07:04:00.000-04:00Wow... what great, passionate poetry... I've alway...Wow... what great, passionate poetry... I've always loved John Donne's holy sonnets, but for some reason I'd never looked into Herbert. This is great stuff - as you've said, The Glance is also very touching.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-69409541382308518002008-05-28T04:42:00.000-04:002008-05-28T04:42:00.000-04:00Btw, after "Dialogue", check out "The Glance".Btw, after "Dialogue", check out "The Glance".Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-4271758986913291542008-05-28T04:37:00.000-04:002008-05-28T04:37:00.000-04:00Now that's "transformation theology"!Now <I>that's</I> "transformation theology"!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-81597996704497170762008-05-28T02:02:00.000-04:002008-05-28T02:02:00.000-04:00In my efforts to learn to read and love poetry I c...In my efforts to learn to read and love poetry I came across Herbert. I know read his poetry as devotional literature as an effort to love God all the more.<BR/><BR/>Incidentally I came across his Country Parson and found it to be a useful cure for many misconceptions about being a pastor.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-26041999318661208702008-05-27T22:39:00.000-04:002008-05-27T22:39:00.000-04:00I think his much shorter Dialog between Death and ...I think his much shorter Dialog between Death and the Christian is my favorite.tAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com