tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post316601594537390855..comments2024-03-25T13:40:30.747-04:00Comments on Faith and Theology: Theology FAIL: Christians enjoy killingBen Myershttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03800127501735910966noreply@blogger.comBlogger43125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-42809187186468014882010-01-04T11:54:07.166-05:002010-01-04T11:54:07.166-05:00Tim,
And I might say it is an excellent blog!
~N...Tim,<br /><br />And I might say it is an excellent blog!<br /><br />~NathanAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-35759845846186067842009-12-18T15:22:10.369-05:002009-12-18T15:22:10.369-05:00http://www.geneveith.com/
Veith has a blog too.http://www.geneveith.com/<br /><br />Veith has a blog too.Timhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12345657034845723526noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-17313113332460057682009-12-08T19:02:11.007-05:002009-12-08T19:02:11.007-05:00Hello all,
I can only quickly post now - I can...Hello all,<br /><br />I can only quickly post now - I can't check again until next week.<br /><br />Here's what I wrote to Dr. Veith when he wrote that article:<br /><br />...I was disturbed by your most recent column in World justifying the military man who enjoys his work.<br /><br /><br /><br />Please don't get me wrong--I believe like you that what he does is right and good and that it is good that he enjoys his work.<br /><br /><br /><br />I guess I think the aspect of his work that he ought to be enjoying and deriving satisfaction from the most is that he is a protector--he does something that saves lives.<br /><br /><br /><br />Now a fireman does something similar, and may even enjoy the means to this end. In order to protect, he fights the fires and enjoys doing so.<br /><br /><br /><br />I would not have been discouraged had the good military man (I forget his rank) talked about enjoying the means had he talked about it in a more detached, video-game, kind of way... (I hear the military trains you to more or less kill mechanically and to think of yourself as doing so to for the good of your unit that they may succeed...)<br /><br /><br /><br />The man, however, talked about killing in a much different sense. In un-Christlike fashion, he talked of how much he enjoyed killing people because of what horrible people they were. In other words, he enjoyed the death of sinners--and not showing mercy.<br /><br /><br /><br />I believe it is the same book of Ezekiel that condemns those who fight in war and ENJOY the shedding of blood. If you write me back, I can tell you the verse I am thinking about. I don't think I am taking it out of context.<br /><br /><br /><br />Again, Dr. Veith--I love what you do. But because I so value you as a voice for good Lutheran theology (grace and mercy!), I think this last column is screaming for a follow-up--for Christians are ultimately people of mercy. Even protecting the weak by killing is an expression of God's lovingkindness. But he never enjoys the death of the wicked.<br /><br /><br /><br />Psalm 139: "how happy is he who dashes your infants across the rocks", must be seen as doing so to our flesh, the devil, and death--I think<br /><br />(end letter)<br /><br />He responded by saying "you may well be right".<br /><br />All of us write stuff we regret sometimes.<br /><br />~NathanAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-36108799490530649332009-12-07T17:12:54.151-05:002009-12-07T17:12:54.151-05:00Regarding Veith's position about the pleasure ...Regarding Veith's position about the pleasure of killing, I think it's interesting to note that some of the early church barred men who had killed in battle from the sacraments for a period of time (I think usually 1-3 years). St. Basil approved of the practice, and I think Hauerwas has mentioned it as an example of how the church's attitude towards violence and warfare has changed. <br /><br />Our fathers did not consider killings committed in the course of wars to be classifiable as murders at all, on the score, it seems to me, of allowing a pardon to men fighting in defense of sobriety and piety. Perhaps, though, it might be advisable to refuse them communion for three years, on the ground that their hands are not clean. --St. Basil, Canon 13Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11325829889080920736noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-27541822881949067432009-12-06T21:33:57.936-05:002009-12-06T21:33:57.936-05:00Judd:
???Judd:<br /><br />???Joshhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11823464329012635376noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-81131682429616362062009-12-05T23:33:09.351-05:002009-12-05T23:33:09.351-05:00I agree with Josh's sound line of argument. Ch...I agree with Josh's sound line of argument. Christ was inherently non-violent in a physical sense, and made the epistemological point that all violence of the soul is extinguished in Him, because all sin is forgiven, bound and undone. The cross extinguished it all.<br /><br />"For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms." (Ephesians 6:12)<br /><br />We are not called to war.(Christ commands the disciples to buy two swords in Luke, but not to use them, but instead to fulfill the prophesy of Isaiah, and to demonstrate a point to Peter). However, he never instructs them to fight. He instead says, "For all who draw the sword will die by the sword" (Matt. 26:52).<br /><br />I don't see how this argument can be justified at all, other than assuming that the war-driven world that the Israelites lived in was some how reflective of God and prescriptive to believers, which is insanity.<br /><br />David.insidiumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02860424995919014554noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-77218366130834876632009-12-05T21:31:48.329-05:002009-12-05T21:31:48.329-05:00Josh- please share with us why, in your profession...Josh- please share with us why, in your professional theological opinion, Jesus gives his imprimatur to the historical behavior of UN peacekeepers in Rwanda.<br /><br />And yes, I already know that he was present with all the dead as they were hacked to death. Praise God, he suffered with them. He was their reward, and I heartily say, more than sufficient. Had I been hacked to death there with them, I would have embraced him with all my heart, soul, and strength as I bled to death.<br /><br />But one wonders, if Jesus was with the dying, why wasn't he also with the blue helmets? Did they just have to tell Him "non, merci"? and bid him be on his way across the fence, where he belonged?<br /><br />I'll grant you, given the wickedness in high places, most of the world's soldiers would probably serve Christ more faithfully by conscientiously objecting to whatever it is their superiors are commanding at any given moment, and paying whatever price they had to pay as a result.<br /><br />What a shame there were no such conscientious objectors among the blue helmets. But alas, when the son of man comes, one wonders if he will find any faith on the earth.Juddhttp://www.ocfusa.org/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-14233412780663383842009-12-05T00:08:50.054-05:002009-12-05T00:08:50.054-05:00Judd:
Jesus interpreted the OT; I suspect he did ...Judd:<br /><br />Jesus interpreted the OT; I suspect he did justice to it.Joshhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11823464329012635376noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-37265764528550832502009-12-04T22:45:09.002-05:002009-12-04T22:45:09.002-05:00The thrill of war, and its godly prosecution, is a...The thrill of war, and its godly prosecution, is an existential fact. The OT is rife with this realization, and it does not apologize for it.<br /><br />As good as the New Covenant is, it is actually an epic FAIL on your part to wipe out this OT realization. The Blood casts new light on it; it does not delete it. And it certainly gives no grounds for us to mock theologians who try to do justice to it.<br /><br />However, the facile use of vocation theory, and the dangers of realizing how evil sweeps us up, are valid criticisms and duly noted.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04137802361728460304noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-64636218622068854542009-12-04T21:44:37.718-05:002009-12-04T21:44:37.718-05:00Serious moral questions threaten to ignite conflic...Serious moral questions threaten to ignite conflict between 2 crews in the TV series of the Sopranos, season 3. First, there is disagreement about the borders of competing garbage contracts and drivers are being killed and trucks blown up. Then, Ralphy brutally beats to death one of the dancers/hookers at the ‘Bada Bing’ because she (Tracy) had slapped him and insulted his manhood. Boss Tony is angry with Ralphy (a made guy) about “disrespecting the Bing” and slugs him, but this is apparently against the gangster code even if Tony is a Boss. True, Ralphy’s killing may have been…untoward, but collateral damage of civilians (as non-gangsters are called) is within the margins of the code, striking another ‘made guy’ is not. Will Tony ‘whack’ Ralphy for his disrespect? And if so, will Ralphy and the murdered Tracy meet up in heaven and just have a big a laugh over the whole thing!? Should find out tonight! Obliged.Daniel Imburgiahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04011159253204822220noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-33928380354189598132009-12-04T13:32:57.104-05:002009-12-04T13:32:57.104-05:00christplaysnz:
I'm not sure my post re: C.S. ...christplaysnz:<br /><br />I'm not sure my post re: C.S. Lewis was an ad hominem attack.<br /><br />I described his words posted above as his "opinion"; he wrote, "It is...in my opinion, perfectly right for a Christian judge to sentence a man to death or a Christian soldier to kill an enemy."<br /><br />I described his cursory exegesis as "simplistic"; Lewis notes that there are different Greek and Hebrew words for "kill" and "murder," and then recalls stories in which John the Baptist and Jesus encounter soldiers. Regarding the commandment, Lewis fails to mention that when Jesus teaches it in the Sermon on the Mount (which seems to rule out the use of violence by followers of Jesus), he goes on to intensify it; Lewis suggests an interpretation that moves in the opposite direction, toward evasion rather than intensification. Regarding the stories of encounters with soldiers, the first is irrelevant (Christians are followers of Jesus, not John the Baptist), and the second is an example of enemy-love--Jesus, a Jew, helps a Roman centurion who is part of a force that occupies the Jewish homeland and keeps the Jews in line with violence (most notably crucifixion). True, Jesus does not tell the soldier (who is not one of his followers) to leave the Roman military. He simply loves his enemy, showing his disciples (at least some of whom would have preferred that he kill his enemies) what the ethic he had previously taught in the Sermon on the Mount looks like.<br /><br />I said Lewis showed "some sentimentality"; here I was commenting on his romantic notion of Christian knights, as well as this statement: "It is that feeling that robs lots of magnificent young Christians in the Services of something they have a right to, something which is the natural accompaniment of courage--a kind of gaity and wholeheartedness." Nevermind robbing people of life!<br /><br />I mentioned the heavy reliance by Lewis on his "personal experience"; he writes of his experience fighting in World War I. Of course, such an experience would influence a person's thinking on war. My point was that personal experience is not a firm foundation on which to construct theological arguments.<br /><br />I mentioned his tendency to engage in "speculation"; he writes, "I have often thought to myself how it would have been if, when I served in the first world war, I and some young German had killed each other simultaneously and found ourselves together a moment after death. I cannot imagine that either of us would have felt any resentment or even any embarrassment. I think we might have laughed over it."<br /><br />Finally, I wrote of the "reductionistic understanding of the gospel" often evident in the writings of Lewis; here I had in mind the last paragraph above, which conveys the notions that Christian salvation is reducible to souls going to heaven or hell and that Christian ethics is reducible to the attitude we have when we do whatever we are doing--loving people, killing people, and so forth.<br /><br />I agree with you that Lewis was not a professional theologian. My concern is that many Christians to this day regard him as one of the greatest theologians. These folks may deceive themselves into thinking they are following Jesus when they nod their heads in agreement while reading the thoughts on war of C.S. Lewis.Joshhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11823464329012635376noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-710736891809265182009-12-04T10:55:52.581-05:002009-12-04T10:55:52.581-05:00I would like to ask Veith if he ever investigated ...I would like to ask Veith if he ever investigated the history of the German church under Hitler, and how deeply pious Christians justified their military service for the Nazi regime--oh, what do you know, they used Romans 13 and two-kingdom theory! Who woulda thunk?<br /><br />"Luther goes so far as to say that soldiers should refuse to fight in wars that are clearly evil."<br /><br />Obviously most German Christians didn't have the virtues or moral resources to identify what was "clearly evil." Do we?Paulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07483515277515922712noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-29282785674441989212009-12-04T02:34:19.770-05:002009-12-04T02:34:19.770-05:00I'm surprised at this. I read Veith's A Gu...I'm surprised at this. I read Veith's <i>A Guide to Contemporary Culture</i> during my first year at uni back in 1995, and found it a decent read. I'd never have supposed he'd say anything like this.<br /><br />But the presuppositions at play here are common. In my local church a few weeks back, our minister preached a sermon on Revelation 19 and, if I remember correctly, argued from 19:2-3 that Christians should take pleasure in the condemnation and judgement of sinners. I suppose that it's just a step or two away to say that if a Christian feels that his or her calling is to serve God as a member of the military, then s/he is not barred from taking pleasure in taking life - because God does, and Christians should strive to be like God.<br /><br />Hopefully you can tell by my tone that I <i>don't</i> agree with this stance.Terry Wrighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01641805384260706563noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-10497310500169472772009-12-04T01:31:48.306-05:002009-12-04T01:31:48.306-05:00Justin, I would fly to the States just to be in th...Justin, I would fly to the States just to be in that service with you to add to the water spitIan Packerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16018869275276615557noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-42897317334288074252009-12-04T01:24:39.942-05:002009-12-04T01:24:39.942-05:00Just wanted to throw this out there: I totally dig...Just wanted to throw this out there: I totally dig the idea of Theology FAIL becoming a regular feature...Roberthttp://www.theveilaway.com/commentarynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-23030958960108498962009-12-04T01:06:03.787-05:002009-12-04T01:06:03.787-05:00"As with much C.S. Lewis, his thoughts quoted..."As with much C.S. Lewis, his thoughts quoted above are barely theological. Mix together opinion, a bit of simplistic exegesis, some sentimentality, personal experience, speculation, and a reductionistic understanding of the gospel and you have the thought of C.S. Lewis. Has there ever been a more overrated theologian?"<br /><br />lol<br /><br />-AAAAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-49734214311646135612009-12-04T01:02:16.013-05:002009-12-04T01:02:16.013-05:00John again.
Please find a quote which is taken f...John again. <br /><br />Please find a quote which is taken from this remarkable essay:<br /><br />www.dabase.org/p9rightness.htm<br /><br />"The negative exploitation and killing of human beings by human beings violates the heart of one and all."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-17968781588766694102009-12-04T00:54:43.541-05:002009-12-04T00:54:43.541-05:00Josh, I wouldn't call Lewis- "a very ordi...Josh, I wouldn't call Lewis- "a very ordinary layman of the church of England" - a theologian at all. He was a teacher of literature, a Christian, and a speculative thinker, and never claimed to be more. I rate him as a thinker and a writer, and not as a theologian. And I quoted him only because, as Terry Eagleton says, as thinkers we have a have a duty to confront the case at its most persuasive. And I knew where to find a similar point put much better than the article linked. And I don't think an ad hominem dismissal of Lewis is helps us at all. If you take issues with the exegesis in the passage, correct it, for all our sakes. But lets not mis-label the thinker, the intent of the passage, and insult the writer - especially, if it doesn't add to the conversation.christplaysnzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00122957819673524150noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-70610383412746857642009-12-04T00:39:15.259-05:002009-12-04T00:39:15.259-05:00My name is John.
I dont know and I am not going t...My name is John.<br /><br />I dont know and I am not going to check it out but I would not be surprised if Gene Veith was/is a paid up subscriber to the supposedly pro-life Manhattan Manifesto.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-62303221341186866512009-12-03T23:20:04.843-05:002009-12-03T23:20:04.843-05:00As with much C.S. Lewis, his thoughts quoted above...As with much C.S. Lewis, his thoughts quoted above are barely theological. Mix together opinion, a bit of simplistic exegesis, some sentimentality, personal experience, speculation, and a reductionistic understanding of the gospel and you have the thought of C.S. Lewis. Has there ever been a more overrated theologian?Joshhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11823464329012635376noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-48097386752321385572009-12-03T21:45:41.956-05:002009-12-03T21:45:41.956-05:00'Vocation' is almost a dead word.
When V...'Vocation' is almost a dead word. <br /><br />When Veith says, "Christians with a military vocation", I want to know who is calling... <br /><br />A Christian might be called by the military, but is the military called by Christ?Ian Packerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16018869275276615557noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-68582933962453214092009-12-03T21:17:39.130-05:002009-12-03T21:17:39.130-05:00I once heard a pastor respond to a question put to...I once heard a pastor respond to a question put to him during an evening church Q&A: would Jesus enlist in the US Army and fight in the Iraq war? His answer: 'Well, because this a just war, I believe the answer has to be yes - yes, he would.' <br /><br />Always wished I could go back to that service with a tall glass of water, just so I could spit out a nice mouthful in surprise (and/or an appropriately Moe-like 'whaaaaaaa??!!').Justin S.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-6203449467839550232009-12-03T20:35:24.600-05:002009-12-03T20:35:24.600-05:00"I am a [prostitute]. Luther says that the Ch..."I am a [prostitute]. Luther says that the Christian [prostitute] is not the one who tacks a cross on his work but who does his work to the best of his ability. Therefore I can do what my vocation requires to my best ability."<br /><br />One of the oldest vocations in the book.Joshhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11823464329012635376noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-47885330379351703352009-12-03T20:13:09.088-05:002009-12-03T20:13:09.088-05:00This piece by Veith is an EPIC fail. but as Lacan ...This piece by Veith is an EPIC fail. but as Lacan (and Zizek) would point out, there is the element of 'jouissance' (enjoyment-in-pain) in the act of killing the 'enemy' that must be confronted when we look at the fantasies surrounding war.<br /><br />however, i wasn't aware that it's the social function of Christianity to provide the fantasy for the enjoyment of killing. But now, this Veith is marching us onward to an important social function for the status quo again! yay.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-7902349114451468212009-12-03T19:25:04.590-05:002009-12-03T19:25:04.590-05:00OK! No more anonymous posts, Ben. Nobody gets say ...OK! No more anonymous posts, Ben. Nobody gets say so unless they are held to task for their idiocy or lauded for their insight.<br /><br />Sick of the cowardice.roger flyernoreply@blogger.com