tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post2466398337331078949..comments2024-03-25T13:40:30.747-04:00Comments on Faith and Theology: Some discouraging statisticsBen Myershttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03800127501735910966noreply@blogger.comBlogger49125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-64716791255393098842011-08-15T23:08:06.528-04:002011-08-15T23:08:06.528-04:00I live in the UK and studied theology at Oxford. ...I live in the UK and studied theology at Oxford. What is a textbook? Who is Grudem?kim fabriciusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-48452915956790638222011-08-15T23:07:50.873-04:002011-08-15T23:07:50.873-04:00Hi Les and JBH -- thanks for your comments. And I ...Hi Les and JBH -- thanks for your comments. And I agree: I hope we can avoid "erudite muck flinging"!<br><br>I also agree with you about the charismatic sections of Grudem's <i>Systematic Theology</i> -- I think this stuff is very interesting and creative, and it has helped to foster serious theological reflection on Pentecostal/charismatic experience.<br><br>But I still can't help feeling discouraged at the popularity of Grudem's book as a classroom text -- there are plenty of better books available! In particular, a good theological textbook should model <i>actual theological thinking</i>, instead of merely providing students with the illusion of ready-made answers. After all, many theological students will go on to become pastors: and in pastoral ministry, what's needed is not ready-made answers, but the ability to <i>think theologically</i> in new and unpredictable situations.Ben Myershttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03800127501735910966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-85022874147387092822011-08-15T23:07:50.478-04:002011-08-15T23:07:50.478-04:00The arrogance of Christian never fails to surprise...The arrogance of Christian never fails to surprise me. I guess we are all only one step removed from pharisees.<br><br>Grudem is a very good theologian. What I appreciate is that he is not easy to pin down. His work on "Prophecy" is excellent for pentecostals and charismatics who wish to understand the academic basis for this gifting. <br><br>His "Systematic Theology" is well thought out although I prefer Erickson as a foundational text. <br><br>I am not going to be able to engage in the erudite muck flinging that goes on but I would ask that we be Jesus-followers before academics. I have observed some comments that are blatantly sinful and dishonouring to God yet all couched in the language of the academy.Leshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12409622326179610286noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-64708416973708450272011-08-15T23:07:49.786-04:002011-08-15T23:07:49.786-04:00Well, Ben this was always the difficulty at Moore:...Well, Ben this was always the difficulty at Moore: where are the good textbooks for an entry level theology course? We didn't like Grudem, we don't use Reymond or Erickson, and McGrath is useful but thin and very historical. Migloire is too liberal for us. Hendrikus Berkhof(which I like) too idiosyncratic.<br><br>Which would you recommend?<br><br>Perhaps you could publish your blogmatics!michael jensenhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15379361601019023165noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-86078287032235020392011-08-15T23:07:49.248-04:002011-08-15T23:07:49.248-04:00Well obviously it is a case of 'both/and':...Well obviously it is a case of 'both/and': first year students (especially those who struggle academically, but not just them) find a textbook really useful so that they can get their bearings on each topic. The reality is, some students won't read widely (they'll be too busy doing their Greek and Hebrew), so it helps to at least have a guide to help them - and it helps to be in broad agreement with its approach.<br><br>A good textbook - and a good teacher - of course provides you with avenues to go deeper and wider. Personally, i got through my undergrad years with the Cambridge Companion and McGrath giving me the lie of the land! My complaint about McGrath is that he never tells you what he actually thinks: he just gives you a list of various views, which is helpful up to a point I guess, but not he full story.michael jensenhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15379361601019023165noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-56109239182753884792011-08-15T23:07:48.685-04:002011-08-15T23:07:48.685-04:00And, you are ABSOLUTELY RIGHT about the need to th...And, you are ABSOLUTELY RIGHT about the need to think theologically: this is a pastoral imperative. Ready made answers don't work in pastoral settings!michael jensenhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15379361601019023165noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-59938281956138940552011-08-15T23:07:48.106-04:002011-08-15T23:07:48.106-04:00Michael - wouldn't it be good to encourage peo...Michael - wouldn't it be good to encourage people to use more than one book, and so see the different theologies out there (those which you see as more 'liberal' and those which are more conservative and those which are more historical. what about colin gunton's 'A Christian Faith' or Stan Grenz's 'Theology for the Community of God' or 'The Cambridge Companion to Christian Doctrine'. I would say for an undergraduate course, historical theology is really important.andy goodliffhttp://andygoodliff.typepad.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-34264285553783225192008-09-02T07:23:00.000-04:002008-09-02T07:23:00.000-04:00Hi Ben,Though it's very late for me to comment yet...Hi Ben,<BR/><BR/>Though it's very late for me to comment yet the post and your question are irresistibly intriguing. <BR/><BR/>Over at Trinity Theological College, Singapore, McGrath's 4th ed. text is preferred as it's a good introduction to theology.<BR/><BR/>And that'll also lead the students to McGrath's other advanced works.<BR/><BR/>On the other hand, Grudem's text is surprisingly very dull. When I was looking for a systematic theology text, I'd never got enough reason to get Grudem though its latest edition's front cover is beautiful.<BR/><BR/>Not sure if his text is that popular worldwide, but it seems to be so in my part of the world.<BR/><BR/>If it's true that Grudem is the most widely used text, then no wonder the theological scene, especially at post-colonial countries like Malaysia and Singapore (where I'm from), is generally dull and unexciting as compared to other parts of the world.<BR/><BR/>Blessings.SATheologieshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03776516716731379132noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-33399032445463150582007-05-22T22:34:00.000-04:002007-05-22T22:34:00.000-04:00I've always felt that the major weakness of Grudem...I've always felt that the major weakness of Grudem is that there is no interaction with Historical Theology, but a benefit has been its usefulness in providing quick access to the gathered Biblical data on an issue. But this is something that a concordance can do. Aside from this, his book is useful in that he provides a evangelical/charismatic view on some issues which you don't often get in the other works suggested above.Martin Kemphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17908454108625787731noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-20772024824105189002007-05-19T00:01:00.000-04:002007-05-19T00:01:00.000-04:00You know i think a major reason for why this book ...You know i think a major reason for why this book is so popular is that Camups Crusade for Christ has used it for over 20 years. This organization is over 25,000 strong, a huge para-church ministry. This organization's use of it alone would probably make Grudem king.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-7518531467935217842007-05-17T05:25:00.000-04:002007-05-17T05:25:00.000-04:00I still think Louis Berkhof's Systematic Theology ...I still think Louis Berkhof's Systematic Theology is the best.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-82814185931533058142007-05-17T04:41:00.000-04:002007-05-17T04:41:00.000-04:00I think r.t. jones' post nailed it.I think r.t. jones' post nailed it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-66609748076482677482007-05-16T22:15:00.000-04:002007-05-16T22:15:00.000-04:00Isn't this discussion simply another illustration ...Isn't this discussion simply another illustration of how theology has been decimated as a discipline since, let's say, the days of Scheiermacher? Would any two of the books mentioned so far even <I>claim</I> to have the same purpose? And when you compare the likes of Hendrikus Berkhof to Grudem, I suspect you are talking about different planes of theological reality. I'm not sure Grudem claims his book to be a dogmatic work as such, does he? <BR/><BR/>And, why does no-one use the classic American works of Brown and Clarke anymore?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-85496371938576128592007-05-16T18:33:00.000-04:002007-05-16T18:33:00.000-04:00For those interested in Grudem, check out http://w...For those interested in Grudem, check out <BR/>http://www.theopedia.com/Wayne_Grudem<BR/><BR/>There is also some audio if you want to listen as you read (or if you don't have his book but want exposure to him).Jordan Barretthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17026721955455243868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-1490863377133686082007-05-16T17:42:00.000-04:002007-05-16T17:42:00.000-04:00Kim's "what's a textbook" comment was a question I...Kim's "what's a textbook" comment was a question I expected more of outside the U.S. I could wish the Oxford tutorial and attending lectures was a method used in the states. Unfortunately, we do not usually "read" for degrees. We get survey courses and assigned textbooks. Only in "electives" and advanced courses do major theologians (e.g. Barth, Moltmann, Pannenberg, etc.) get read.<BR/><BR/>Bruce and Demarest? Horrors! <BR/><BR/>I think the recommendation of Grenz's Theology for the Community of God is a good one (not available when I was in seminary). I liked the way my teacher, Molly Marshall, always gave choices for the major systematic text (even though that was more work on her part)and then assigned additional texts, some "conservative" and some "liberal" so that even survey students got exposure to a range.<BR/><BR/>I used Maquarrie's textbook along with Berkhof's <I>Christian Faith</I> and then also read Moltmann's <I>The Crucified God</I>, Sallie McFague's <I>Models in Theology</I> and others.<BR/><BR/><BR/>Were I teaching such courses currently, I would definitely use Migliore, along with James Wm. McClendon's <I>Doctrine</I>. I also would consider having students review Marjorie Hewitt Suchocki's <I>God, Christ, Church</I> as a way to familiarize them with process theology (a major current that students should know, whether or not they adopt it) and also introduces them to a major feminist theologian. Another approach might be to use Thomas Oden's 3 volumes, which would at least get students into the habit of thinking theologically in conversation with Patristic and Medieval writers.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-83430190154175035492007-05-16T17:30:00.000-04:002007-05-16T17:30:00.000-04:00I embarrased to say that I haven't read Grudem's S...I embarrased to say that I haven't read Grudem's ST. The last big Evangelical ST I read was Reymond's. We used Calvin's <I>Institutes</I> at the set text for dogmatics when I studied at the London Theological Seminary. <BR/><BR/>Contemporary Reformed Theology is better accessed through multi-author series such as IVP's <I>Contours of Christian Thelogy</I>. The set has outanding contributions from Gerald Bray and Donald Macleod. <BR/><BR/>Robert Letham's <I>The Holy Trinity</I> is also a great read. It will be interesting to see if Kevin Vanhoozer will be tempted to write a full ST based on his proposals in <I>The Drama of Doctrine</I>.Guy Davieshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09184743462264437085noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-2530129160393233052007-05-16T16:05:00.000-04:002007-05-16T16:05:00.000-04:00I think Grudem's book is so widely read for the ve...I think Grudem's book is so widely read for the very reasons so many are frustrated with it: he is attempting to stay away from "what we may call the 'liberal' theological tradition." He says, "...someone needs to say that it is doubtful that liberal theologians have given us any significant insights into the doctrinal teaching of Scripture that are not already to be found in evangelical writers."(p17) A view like this can be very appealing to people who see themselves as deeply engaged in a culture war.<BR/>Similarly, Grudem appeals to neo-pietists for his emphasis on the devotional aspect of theology, with every chapter ending with a scripture memory verse and a hymn. I have a lot of friends who want to explore their beliefs without having to learn the correct way to pronounce "Barth". Grudem is exactly the kind of resource they are looking for.Ryan Joneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03684042101455314865noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-1262896661621513682007-05-16T15:48:00.000-04:002007-05-16T15:48:00.000-04:00I haven't read Grudem despite his stint with my de...I haven't read Grudem despite his stint with my denomination. Then again this charismatic evangelical chose to go to a Catholic seminary because I didn't want more of the same from my own experiences. Seeing as though I'm starting my masters of Systematic and Historical theology next semester, perhaps I should look at Wayne's work. Hmmmm.One of Freedomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02479227411431959461noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-22992843434628160142007-05-16T13:00:00.000-04:002007-05-16T13:00:00.000-04:00Grudem has gone a long way in evangelical schools ...Grudem has gone a long way in evangelical schools to supplanting Erickson as a standard text. His problems are too manifold to count, as these comments make clear.<BR/><BR/>I would just say that even amongst evangelical systematic theologies narrowly concieved there is better stuff out there than this. Lewis & Demarest's <I>Integrative Theology</I>, while sadly rationalistic and still thoroughly conservative at least engages all sorts of questions and takes pains to interact with the scope of the Christiand tradition in everything it examines.<BR/><BR/>However, Migliore's book is unquestionably the best prospect I can think of for a one-volume ST textbook.Haldenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03936185959033443640noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-68920249619437742112007-05-16T12:08:00.000-04:002007-05-16T12:08:00.000-04:00It was Huntington University in Indiana. The reli...It was Huntington University in Indiana. The religion faculty there are all really great, and the teaching was top-notch, although some of the people on the business end of things are far too quick to accommodate pressure from the outside--hence the unjustified dismissal of John Sanders, of "open theism" fame.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-1118536466326348782007-05-16T11:19:00.000-04:002007-05-16T11:19:00.000-04:00So im interested,the book you quote from is how Mo...So im interested,<BR/>the book you quote from is how Modern Evangelicals reinvent the Doctrine of the Trinity, does Grudem do so?Danielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12462791786546752315noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-30882341831983754202007-05-16T11:03:00.000-04:002007-05-16T11:03:00.000-04:00What evangelical college was that?What evangelical college was that?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04507003490044818749noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-20790819040547151652007-05-16T10:23:00.000-04:002007-05-16T10:23:00.000-04:00I'm happy to report that I graduated with a theolo...I'm happy to report that I graduated with a theology major from an evangelical college and never once had Grudem assigned. Our systematics survey courses generally used Grenz, supplemented by excerpts from Barth and the Church Fathers.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-4706630139659711802007-05-16T07:34:00.000-04:002007-05-16T07:34:00.000-04:00Kim, when I was at Oxford Wenham's The Elements of...Kim, when I was at Oxford Wenham's The Elements of New Testament Greek was my bible. Well that and my bible...<BR/><BR/>Although having said that, noting the standard of some of my early essays it could easily have been assumed that I was using the big book of bullshit as my only primary source. <BR/><BR/>MattAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-26250024159388895022007-05-16T05:45:00.000-04:002007-05-16T05:45:00.000-04:00Michael Jinkins's Invitation to Theology: A Guide ...Michael Jinkins's Invitation to Theology: A Guide to Study, Conversation, & Practice is a textbook that merits mention.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com