tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post2085769594320745467..comments2024-03-12T03:53:57.725-04:00Comments on Faith and Theology: On catechesis and catastropheBen Myershttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03800127501735910966noreply@blogger.comBlogger19125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-59861468033971714622011-08-19T16:36:42.378-04:002011-08-19T16:36:42.378-04:00This is the view of the Anglican parish I mentione...This is the view of the Anglican parish I mentioned. The priest says, every week prior to communion, "This is the table not only of the church, but of Christ, and it is his will that those who want to meet him, would meet him here." However, in my view, this statement is overly simplistic, for untold numbers of people have met Christ in settings other than the communion table. Because the church has a mandate to exclude unrepentant sinners (1 Corinthians 5:12-13) and because the consequences of participating in communion unworthily are so grave (1 Corinthians 11:29-31), I do not believe that I, or the church, can in good conscience encourage uncritical, unexamined participation in communion. I trust that Christ will meet people at other times and places, as he has so often met me.Theophilushttp://ortusmemoria.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-69831154879269240822011-07-31T09:48:07.807-04:002011-07-31T09:48:07.807-04:00Re, " The church to which I belong, the Menno...Re, " The church to which I belong, the Mennonite Brethren, have a tradition of taking the unifying power of communion very seriously, and therefore exluding from table fellowship those who do not belong to a church or who are not in "right relationship" with their church or its members."<br /><br />It's not the Mennonites' table. It's not the Church's table. It's the LORD's table, and to deny it to anyone is to dare stand between others and Christ.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-537501678351061372011-07-31T01:25:33.050-04:002011-07-31T01:25:33.050-04:00This story makes some really interesting theologic...This story makes some really interesting theological assertions when it is linked to baptism. Is it something we apply for, as a chosing adult? Or is it gift, given to us by the church. The theology of the story seems to suggest more of a evangelical approach to baptism than that asserted by the Uniting Church. <br /><br />It also makes some interesting links re the nature of formation. Do we really think that we learn Christianity by doing a course? <br /><br />steve<br />www.emergentkiwi.org.nzspirit2go teamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04275018079934031322noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-6614475290187556792011-07-27T21:55:20.344-04:002011-07-27T21:55:20.344-04:00Great story to reflect on as I go to do a baptisma...Great story to reflect on as I go to do a baptismal interview today. I have posted a few of my own thoughts on my blog. http://kairosuc.blogspot.com/2011/07/baptism-with-integrity.html<br />Peter LockhartPJtheoLogyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17427143521929065284noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-3347690861586507382011-07-27T17:35:26.181-04:002011-07-27T17:35:26.181-04:00Belief doesn’t mean much in our world. ‘The world’...Belief doesn’t mean much in our world. ‘The world’ in which we live doesn’t really care what we believe, so long as all the usual powers of our world control our desires and our habits. The lack of catechism is perhaps symptomatic of a world in which belief is not that important – ‘belief’ is private, it is between me and God, it is a product of my own spirituality, its, well… religious. Perhaps the analogy with your wonderful story Ben is that catechesis is like a memory test of the road rules, even when it is done (and, as you point out, even that is hardly done now) but where do we learn how to drive and who really tests us that we can actually drive before we are sacramentally licensed? (Though I am one for ‘believer’s baptism’ myself – and preferably with a three year catechesis prior to baptism as per the early church – the principle of confirmation should be about getting one’s P plates after a practical road test too, I presume.) Formation into the practises of the believing community is what catechesis really should be about, and in our day where ‘liberal individualism’ makes one the sole pilot of one’s beliefs and practises in theory (but in fact, we are deeply conformed by the powerful disciplines of desire and collective habits of behaviour in which are very lives are situated) it seems like we don’t understand the very idea of church.<br /><br />Paul TysonAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-29117050318099971482011-07-27T17:32:52.736-04:002011-07-27T17:32:52.736-04:00So, let's get specific. What would you require...So, let's get specific. What would you require of people before they enter the church? What the ecclesiastical equivalent of being able to parallel park?Marvinhttp://marvinlindsay.blogspot.com/avdatnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-81474179808730398462011-07-27T03:53:53.994-04:002011-07-27T03:53:53.994-04:00Dear Ben,
Briefly, thanks for a rattling good sto...Dear Ben,<br /><br />Briefly, thanks for a rattling good story, which is up to your usual standards of brilliance.<br /><br />As to the point it illustrates, I find there are two battles in persuading churches to exercise some discernment in their baptismal practice. One is the conviction that an open (or "indiscriminate") policy is wrong - and your story makes an admirable addition to the arsenal for that. The other is the vision for a positive rather than a negative way of handling the enquirers.<br /><br />The policeman in your story wouldn't have helped by simply refusing your mother the licence. She'd have asked a different policeman - or even complained to the superintendent and had him rebuked. The death-on-the-roads outcome would have been the same. Turning away requests for baptism doesn't solve anything.<br /><br />Instead, he needed the charm (and the official backup) to offer something positive. A "provisional licence" to enable your mother to drive under the instruction of a qualified driver, as well as the invitation to the driving school. A proper rite of celebration for the candidate as well as an invitation to join the class.<br /><br />In one of my curacies I was fortunate to serve under a clergyman who had cracked this knotty problem. Everyone was offered a service of "Thanksgiving and Blessing" based on Mark 10:13-16, and we used to build these services up and make them into really positive experiences of welcome and celebration. And everyone was also invited to join in discipleship - to come to church and enroll in the course. And that's the pattern I've followed since.<br /><br />The invitation to join the class is nothing unique in our church. What is special is the way we build up the Thanksgiving service to the point where the people who are asking for the Christening really do feel that they are being given a "yes" by their church, even though it isn't baptism.<br /><br />Yours in Christ - JOHN HARTLEY.John Hartleyhttp://www.stluke-eccleshill.org.uknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-19003376840600307662011-07-27T03:26:51.973-04:002011-07-27T03:26:51.973-04:00"your capacity for moral judgement" — im..."your capacity for moral judgement" — impossible where one's parents are concerned! =)Ben Myershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03800127501735910966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-10177290782192784682011-07-27T03:10:24.674-04:002011-07-27T03:10:24.674-04:00Ben. 'You cannot be serious!'
Let me un...Ben. 'You cannot be serious!'<br /> Let me understand you. A good natured official gives a license to pretty 17 year old in a time and age when cars were few, indeed the UK only brought in licencing regs once the pleb managed to own this most pernicious of poisons, now your pretty 17 year old no doubt pleased with the flattering effects of her coquettish manner boasts of her accomplishment to said sister who actually allows her to drive without first assessing her; worse falls asleep leaving this inept in charge of said killing machine, said inept in response to skittish behaviour speeds up rather than stops, crashes vehicle and then steals and crashes another whilst pissed and you blame the chap who gave her a licence, presumably your reason is said 17 year old's diminished responsibility rather than the obvious class privilege which is screaming out from this tale of Gatsby's guests and their frolics. To your capacity for moral judgement our survey says nah.inhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06694406582530098682noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-21670543271742670442011-07-26T23:42:55.383-04:002011-07-26T23:42:55.383-04:00Ben: this is a wonderful post. I agree wholehearte...Ben: this is a wonderful post. I agree wholeheartedly. One thing that I appreciate about the Patristics is that, the more I read them, the more I find catechesis as a central part of their lives. I just finished Warren Smith's new book on Ambrose, and it is an exploration of his moral theology through an exploration of his views on baptism and catechesis (the writings concerning both by Ambrose are substantial). I wish that we thought and acted in a way that held our call to make disciples as highly as they did. My church does a valiant job through its Sunday School curriculum (they bring in local seminary professors to teach classes, and I am even teaching a course on the Ancient Church for six weeks this Fall), but I realize that most of the other churches I have been in didn't do much to prepare me to walk in the faith.<br /><br />But I can't blame just them. I have been that magnanimous policemen many, many times in my life. It's hard to tell a cute girl "no".Brian Gronewollerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03080049364257859439noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-2764193173032762952011-07-26T23:11:04.524-04:002011-07-26T23:11:04.524-04:00Addendum to comment 1:
Sometimes life can get a li...Addendum to comment 1:<br />Sometimes life can get a little too ferocious for our liking and then we can reflect on one of Ben's stories. And take something special from it.Pamelahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05815263209123614682noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-24712571880222495182011-07-26T18:43:46.191-04:002011-07-26T18:43:46.191-04:00George - thanks for the heads-up on your PCUSA cat...George - thanks for the heads-up on your PCUSA catechism!Ben Myershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03800127501735910966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-84644261255387377082011-07-26T16:30:20.932-04:002011-07-26T16:30:20.932-04:00And if catachesis is demanding (i.e. if it is hard...And if catachesis is demanding (i.e. if it is hard to learn to <i>talk</i> like a follower of Jesus), just imagine how much more demanding it is to actually <i>live</i> like followers of Jesus!<br /><br />In fact, it seems to me that a good many theologians spend all their time trying to learn to talk and never end up doing anything. I don't know if that is a good or bad thing but it does seem a little bit like spending all of one's life in the nursery...DanOhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06948067607178483096noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-39804804399008908142011-07-26T11:52:02.238-04:002011-07-26T11:52:02.238-04:00For those who may be interested in using a catechi...For those who may be interested in using a catechism, take a look at "The Study Catechism" adopted by the PCUSA in 1998. It was the work of a Special Committee, and I was the principal author.<br /><br />http://gamc.pcusa.org/catechism/all/George Hunsingerhttp://www.nrcat.orgnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-37617572251738114342011-07-26T08:15:57.754-04:002011-07-26T08:15:57.754-04:00Pandora's brick.
I fear you may be met with m...Pandora's brick.<br /><br />I fear you may be met with more than a smoking mass now you have opened the bonnet - the sudden airing may kindle an inferno. <br /><br />And yet aired it must needs be.<br /><br />Well done Ben.Fathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10893777139388546286noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-13940482559834051412011-07-26T07:23:09.737-04:002011-07-26T07:23:09.737-04:00I too have known the exhilaration of rocking the s...I too have known the exhilaration of rocking the steering wheel back and forth with dazed but undiminished glee while the air around me dazzled with tumbling shards.<br /><br />And while I have my full license now (and at least one vehicle with the requisite paperwork), I doubt that my driving would be informed by the necessary counterpoints of heady exhilaration and dreadful responsibility without those rites of passage which I, like your mother, have endured. <br /><br /><br />Catechesis may be <i>one</i> such rite...besideourselveshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18434192984017773791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-64999787328972765152011-07-26T01:34:52.622-04:002011-07-26T01:34:52.622-04:00I've been wrestling with a similar issue, but ...I've been wrestling with a similar issue, but with regard to communion rather than baptism. Lately I've been attending an Anglican parish on Sunday evenings with my fiancée, because she works during the daytime. The parish we've been attending very deliberately offers communion to everyone present, consciously refusing to distinguish between those who are baptized and those who are not, or anything else, really. The church to which I belong, the Mennonite Brethren, have a tradition of taking the unifying power of communion very seriously, and therefore exluding from table fellowship those who do not belong to a church or who are not in "right relationship" with their church or its members. Consequently I have, in my unease, been abstaining from communion at the Anglican parish, which is not raising eyebrows there.<br /><br />I find your writing wonderful, Ben, both for its beauty and its illumination of difficult issues. Thanks for another great post.Theophilushttp://ortusmemoria.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-5757304256227073592011-07-26T00:04:47.286-04:002011-07-26T00:04:47.286-04:00I wouldn't say your mother was entirely withou...I wouldn't say your mother was <em>entirely</em> without blame in this situation, but surely the one who allowed her to get behind the wheel without adequately testing her credential bears greater responsibility precisely because that was <em>exactly</em> his role in the situation.<br /><br />As I've recently begun blogging about men's spirituality, I have been thinking quite a lot about the ways we are formed (and <em>not</em> formed) into men in the context of today's media-saturated world. A good deal of counter-catechesis is necessary, especially in training men to see things like male privilege clearly...<br /><br />(apologies if this comment is in your queue more than once; my internet connection just went nuts)Jason Barrhttp://manlytheology.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-28871485892696989612011-07-25T23:08:37.474-04:002011-07-25T23:08:37.474-04:00My first boyfriend drove a red Mini Minor. I thin...My first boyfriend drove a red Mini Minor. I think that's why he was so appealing!<br />I think people become Christians through the heart not through some sort of ceremony. We do learn bit by bit.Pamelahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05815263209123614682noreply@blogger.com