tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post1213579972449540789..comments2024-03-25T13:40:30.747-04:00Comments on Faith and Theology: Calvin's genius for wretchednessBen Myershttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03800127501735910966noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-22551329650898845542015-04-18T02:30:54.312-04:002015-04-18T02:30:54.312-04:00Calvin may have lived in pretty gloomy times, but ...Calvin may have lived in pretty gloomy times, but the fact that he believed his doctrine of predestination would provide consolation proves he was pretty terrible when it comes to understanding human psychology. I think it's fair to say that the majority of people find his presentation of the predestination not comforting but extremely upsetting. But whatever rings your cherries. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-4724953414056957232015-04-18T00:16:10.071-04:002015-04-18T00:16:10.071-04:00Hi Ann,
I'm not a student of Calvin's ins...Hi Ann, <br />I'm not a student of Calvin's institutes so can't comment on him or his position but a helpful lecturer once answered a similar question about predestination. He reminded us that because of the Fall, all of us are destined for hell. This is why predestination or being chosen by God is such an amazing grace! I take from Ben that is why Calvin finds such comfort from it. <br />Thank you Ben.Jade Yeenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-63921509744053537472015-04-15T06:27:35.089-04:002015-04-15T06:27:35.089-04:00OK, point taken. So Calvin found comfort in prede...OK, point taken. So Calvin found comfort in predestination because of the misery in his own world. I'm sure I was reacting to a more general and theological interpretation of predestination, which has never made much sense to me. Specifically, the part about predestination that I can't stomach is (obviously) that some are predestined to hell. Maybe Calvin didn't really believe that and it has been attributed to him unfairly? Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02032208381519259211noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-64575368980301491662015-04-13T03:44:10.625-04:002015-04-13T03:44:10.625-04:00Ben,
Your response to Ann was right on the money....Ben,<br /><br />Your response to Ann was right on the money. In a very recent Viola article on "Shocking Facts" we didn't know about Calvin (http://www.patheos.com/blogs/frankviola/shockingbeliefsofjohncalvin/) he tries to impugn Calvin's authenticity because of x, y, and z, but in doing so, falls into the historical fallacy just Ann would have Calvin be, quite anachronistically, diagnosed with clinical depression according to modern psychological standards. But as you said, all this is absurd. I cannot imagine the hardship and sufferings of life for a typical 16th century European, hence, we must read Calvin charitably, in light of the proper circumstances. It is in this mode that Calvin's theology comes to life, that his predestination serves as a golden nugget of hope and unshakable security for those Genevans, praying in faith like the OT prophets, awaiting that 'better day.' Great stuff.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-59476886806974207922015-04-12T21:15:59.087-04:002015-04-12T21:15:59.087-04:00Ann, thanks for your comment. But I have to reply ...Ann, thanks for your comment. But I have to reply quite emphatically: No, no, no! It won't do to start talking about psychology and depression and prozac: that's not it at all. We're not talking here about someone who merely <i>felt</i> wretched, but someone whose world was <i>objectively</i> wretched. When Calvin dedicated the <i>Institutes</i> to the King of France in 1535, he begged for mercy and protection, describing the plight of protestant Christians as follows: "O most Magnificent King, ... although your heart is presently turned away and estranged from us - even inflamed against us - still I hope that we may recover its grace.... But if on the contrary the evil speaking of those who wish us ill so much hinders your hearing that the accused have no place to defend themselves; or if on the other hand these impetuous madmen forever practice cruelty by prison, beatings, Gehennas, amputations, and burnings, without your putting things in order; we will certainly be near to death, like sheep devoted to the slaughter. Nevertheless if this is so, still we will possess our souls in patience and await the strong hand of the Lord..." It's in this context that Calvin takes so much comfort from the idea of predestination. For him, it's not a gloomy doctrine but a much-needed consolation for a gloomy world. One more quote from the <i>Institutes</i> (p. 245 in Elsie McKee's translation): "Now it is no small matter to know that we are called into the unity of the church which has been elected and set apart by the Lord God to be the body and fullness of Christ.... For when we have that, our salvation is upheld with such a firm support that if all the frame of the world were undermined, our salvation would remain firm and unshaken."Ben Myershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03800127501735910966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-3391749272596500562015-04-11T16:05:25.300-04:002015-04-11T16:05:25.300-04:00Who was it that pointed out that when experiencing...Who was it that pointed out that when experiencing bliss, one can't remember misery, and when in the midst of misery, we can't remember bliss? Seems like Calvin had a different life...he ONLY could experience misery not matter what? Anybody talk about him being psychologically depressed? Or, is it that buying into predestination is asking for a dark world-view? It would be for me...Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02032208381519259211noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14261952.post-83323860445432133792015-04-11T15:24:38.654-04:002015-04-11T15:24:38.654-04:00Ben, I think you might enjoy the character of Marv...Ben, I think you might enjoy the character of Marvin in Douglas Adams' "Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy" series. (Probably you already have.) And even Calvin did not write of the emotions involved in being left in a car park for 576 thousand million years. Mind you, I always think the writer of the book of Proverbs missed a trick when he failed to record: "Isn't it funny that whenever you think life cannot get any worse ... it does!".John Hartleyhttp://www.stluke-eccleshill.org.uknoreply@blogger.com